The 9/11 Forum

Intelligent and evidence-based discussion of 9/11 issues

Skip to content

v

Welcome
Welcome!

Our vision is to provide a home to sincere 9/11 researchers free from biased moderation and abusive tirades from other members.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which only gives you access to view the discussions. New registration has been temporarily enabled; take advantage of it!

WTC2 Molten Metal Drip

Analysis of events and conditions between impacts and onset of collapse.

Re: WTC2 Molten Metal Drip

Postby OneWhiteEye » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:13 pm

Major_Tom wrote:These dudes from Al Qaida handled the descent and the last second bank as if they were fighter pilots.

Great reaction time, at the very least. The final correction is (to me) quite an astounding feat. Not being a pilot, I have only a useless lay opinion - pretty amazing.

Say you don't really know how to handle a plane like this and you are approaching the building. Wouldn't you just aim at the center of the building?

Absolutely. I doubt I'd hit the center, though. Might well miss it altogether. A maximum (root(2) * 208ft) wide strip would be hard to hit at full speed and level approach, I think. The question is moot because I'd never find NYC in the first place.

I see different issues as being possible, mostly distinct:

1) proximity to zero pitch/yaw impact angle is special or preferred for some reason
2) deviation from reported impact angle makes for inconsistent observations
3) final correction is beyond the capability of the alleged pilot
4) misdirection by faking pilot error then split-second save

Only the first is concerned with the actual values of the impact angle, the others are more general in addressing the existence of any discrepancy. I'm first trying to find out if a zero impact angle is special, or if it's only the discrepancy between report and observation that appears to be raising flags.

There is something else to throw in the mix. A correction like this might make the aircraft simultaneously lose altitude, so the trajectory may still have a downward displacement component; probably would.
OneWhiteEye
 
Posts: 6167
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:40 pm

 

Re: WTC2 Molten Metal Drip

Postby Dr. G » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:34 pm

femr2:

Why do you put words into my mouth?

Perhaps you and Heiwa should team up and write my posts for me and I can go and sip a beer!

the cca 8kg of O2 was released just prior to the collapse and burned with a few kilograms of paper and plastic, the resulting heat made a few tones of molten aluminium with t>900°C.


This is not what I said. Where do you get "a few tons of molten aluminum at t>900 deg C". Oh yea, ......that's your wild guess, not mine, ...... but can you support those numbers?

No, I didn't think so .................

And dont you realize there were raging fires in that part of WTC 2 before the final flare-up at 9:58 a.m? And a lot of furniture was "ploughed" into the NE corner of the 80-83 floors of WTC 2. So why do you claim there was only "a few kilograms of paper and plastic" to burn.

Have you ever seen what pure O2 can do to a pre-existing fire? I guess not!

And add some chlorine from the tons of burning PVC in the WTC and in the aircraft and you have a nasty chemically enhanced fire.

But let me ask you femr2, do you have a theory as to what caused that molten metal flow? Let me guess, I bet you think it was thermite/thermate/nanothermite/HMX/RDX or something.

So, let's hear all about it ......................
Dr. G
 
Posts: 521
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:29 pm

Re: WTC2 Molten Metal Drip

Postby femr2 » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:29 pm

Dr. G wrote:femr2:
Why do you put words into my mouth?

I very much doubt that I could, and I have no idea what you mean. Could you elaborate ?

But let me ask you femr2, do you have a theory as to what caused that molten metal flow? Let me guess, I bet you think it was thermite/thermate/nanothermite/HMX/RDX or something.
So, let's hear all about it ......................

I've snipped the middle section of your post, as it was relating to statements by others, though appears to be directed towards myself.

Personally, I haven't totally discounted lead at this point in this discussion, and I'm still awaiting answers to this post (which for clarity was directed towards Matt):

femr2 wrote:1) Within what temperature range does lead glow orange ?
2) How far could molten lead in droplet form fall in air and remain glowing brightly orange ?
3) How would you explain the almost identical appearance of this event ?
Image

I suggest the only practical way to progress is to determine empirical answers to these questions (Well, the first two at least). Without those answers speculation is a bit pointless.
femr2
 
Posts: 2760
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:08 am
Location: UK

Re: WTC2 Molten Metal Drip

Postby Major_Tom » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:16 pm

I see different issues as being possible, mostly distinct:

1) proximity to zero pitch/yaw impact angle is special or preferred for some reason
2) deviation from reported impact angle makes for inconsistent observations
3) final correction is beyond the capability of the alleged pilot
4) misdirection by faking pilot error then split-second save


OWE, also

5) He drifted off into a day-dream until the last few seconds.
6) Hani Hanjour (sp?) was bragging the night before between lap dances that he was going to pull a 270 degree turn before hitting the Pentagon right through the lowest two floors and this guy was a bit jealous. He just wanted to show who was "top gun".

We can't assume that their religious devotion would have put them above such boyish competition.


Dr G, you can sip and post at the same time. It's not an "either-or" situation.


But seriously, so steady at the controls? I could imagine the approaching plane weaving a bit left, a bit right, a bit left again, as if the pilot was inexperienced, nervous and scared sh*tless.

Like..he is human.
Major_Tom
 
Posts: 3277
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:04 pm

Re: WTC2 Molten Metal Drip

Postby femr2 » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:14 pm

Major_Tom wrote:But seriously, so steady at the controls? I could imagine the approaching plane weaving a bit left, a bit right, a bit left again, as if the pilot was inexperienced, nervous and scared sh*tless.

Like..he is human.

I've quoted the last couple of comments on the other thread, with the addition of the AA11 NIST impact location.
femr2
 
Posts: 2760
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:08 am
Location: UK

Re: WTC2 Molten Metal Drip

Postby femr2 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:22 pm

femr2 wrote:1) Within what temperature range does lead glow orange ?

Image
Not sure of the original source of this data, but looks reasonable.
Pretty sure the columns are Kelvin, Centigrade and Fahrenheit.
I suggest a reasonable range would be 500C to 600C, more towards 600C than 500C.

BUT the colour range does not seem to fit. There is a big difference between blood red, cherry and orange.

I suggest this alone may discount lead as the source.

Still need to find an answer to:

2) How far could molten lead in droplet form fall in air and remain glowing brightly orange ?
femr2
 
Posts: 2760
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:08 am
Location: UK

Re: WTC2 Molten Metal Drip

Postby Matt » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:56 pm

A chart found here: http://cc.oulu.fi/~kempmp/colours.html -- shows figures for heated solids.
Matt
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:03 am

Re: WTC2 Molten Metal Drip

Postby peterene1 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:43 pm

Dr. G wrote:femr2:

Why do you put words into my mouth?

Perhaps you and Heiwa should team up and write my posts for me and I can go and sip a beer!

the cca 8kg of O2 was released just prior to the collapse and burned with a few kilograms of paper and plastic, the resulting heat made a few tones of molten aluminium with t>900°C.


This is not what I said. Where do you get "a few tons of molten aluminum at t>900 deg C". Oh yea, ......that's your wild guess, not mine, ...... but can you support those numbers?

No, I didn't think so .................

And dont you realize there were raging fires in that part of WTC 2 before the final flare-up at 9:58 a.m? And a lot of furniture was "ploughed" into the NE corner of the 80-83 floors of WTC 2. So why do you claim there was only "a few kilograms of paper and plastic" to burn.

Have you ever seen what pure O2 can do to a pre-existing fire? I guess not!

And add some chlorine from the tons of burning PVC in the WTC and in the aircraft and you have a nasty chemically enhanced fire.

But let me ask you femr2, do you have a theory as to what caused that molten metal flow? Let me guess, I bet you think it was thermite/thermate/nanothermite/HMX/RDX or something.

So, let's hear all about it ......................


Got pretty emotional, heh?

What did you sad?

You brought up the 911duhbunking clame that the oxygen generators were some extra help, I think that everyone translated your post like that : "it was the extra oxygen from the generators that made the fires so severe that the molten metal....."

Yes, I can definitely support that the if it was molten aluminium then it would have been certainly over a metric ton.

And we both know that a few kilograms of oxygen (which probably wouldn't be released at once) would have make no difference to the NE corner fire).

/ya now, selective amnesia, you would throw arguments like that in thermitc thread, but now, you have just conveniently forgotten this tactics.../

And if it was gonna to make a difference we would see a frakking flair up before the flow.

The fact is that the fire was constantly dying away.

And yes, I'm aware that there was a fire in the NEC.

What I miss is a plausible mechanism which would produce a series of distincitve WHITE smoke pulses (just before the collapse) in which each one is followed by a yellow molten metal flow and a FUNNY cloud of red dust in that corner after the collapse initation.

WITHOUT a falling pieces of debris........other then the molten metal


first act:

Image

second act: Image

third act:

Image

To me it seems like a one or more of thermite charges, which were originaly on the core columns, but the plane dislodged them .....and the debris jammed them in the NEC.

The charges could be sent of by heat or timing mechanism (more probable).....


Let me guess, you think that it was Ali Baba, magnezium sharpeners and a funny amount of coincidences, right?

"nasty chemically enhanced fire"

Oh, how exactly Cl contributes to the yellow/orange glow?
peterene1
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:24 am

Re: WTC2 Molten Metal Drip

Postby Dr. G » Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:31 pm

Peterene1 + Femr2:

Well it looks like you two "experts" know everything there is to know about all things 9/11, .... so maybe I'll just sit back and let you guys post away and explain it all to us.

But perhaps you could drop me a line when you finally have a theory that makes sense, ......,

Dislodged thermite charges? ...... hmm, ....... now that's a good one!
Dr. G
 
Posts: 521
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:29 pm

Re: WTC2 Molten Metal Drip

Postby peterene1 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:37 pm

So, you can't offer any reasonable theory?

Hmm, fine.

I'd rather stick to my political horse then to non-existent theory.

At least I was able to say that I have a political horse at the beggining, I didn't digg it under a pile of bullshit.
peterene1
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:24 am

Re: WTC2 Molten Metal Drip

Postby femr2 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:49 pm

Dr. G wrote:Peterene1 + Femr2:

Well it looks like you two "experts" know everything there is to know about all things 9/11, .... so maybe I'll just sit back and let you guys post away and explain it all to us.

But perhaps you could drop me a line when you finally have a theory that makes sense, ......,

Dislodged thermite charges? ...... hmm, ....... now that's a good one!

Dr. G.,

Could you explain why you are posting such negative and frankly rude comments in my direction please ?

Feel free to quote any statements I have made which you have issue with, as I cannot see how any of my comments could result in your current stance.
femr2
 
Posts: 2760
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:08 am
Location: UK

Re: WTC2 Molten Metal Drip

Postby newton » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:21 pm

might i repeat an earlier suggestion about leaving emotion at the door?
this forum is 'special' for the absence of petty human weakness.
let's all raise a toast to humanity, and get back to the science.
dr. g, if you have a comment about femr2's anaylsis, why not be specific, and leave the "name calling" at the door, too?
bury the hatchet and get on with the logic wars.
newton
 
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:58 pm

Re: WTC2 Molten Metal Drip

Postby peterene1 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:33 pm

Well, it's hard to not get emotional..... when your oponent ridicules your legitimate theory.

It's even harder to do so, when you see that he's willingly lying.

When somebody uses energy relase calculations to disprove thermite (without any logic) and then goes on claiming that a few kilograms of oxygen that wouldn't be released at once could make a difference to a big fire and tons of material (combustibles/aluminium/etc)

..then you know that there's something fishy


if I would be caught like that I would simply say "Ok, I was wrong, the onboard oxygen would have make no difference, no point in tracking the generators..."

And I would certainly explain the supposed efects oh hydrogen (batteies.... lol), chlorine and hydrogen chloride.....(i.e. how did these materials make the molten metal glow....).

It's a matter of honour.

Allmost everybody on this forum is honest, we can not afford expections or some kind of immunity for some members.

I would love to move the emotions aside, but I wasn't the first member which started with ridiculous emotional arguments.
peterene1
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:24 am

Re: WTC2 Molten Metal Drip

Postby newton » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:45 pm

even spock has a hard time putting his emotions aside, sometimes, lol.
well, how about this, too.
it seems to me that it doesn't matter WHAT the glowing material is, because the glow is an effect of how HOT the molten material is. so, whether it is lead, or steel, it will be the SAME TEMPERATURE if it's glowing yellow hot. am i wrong?

the NIST also noticed a 'metal fire' in that corner, but never tried to explain how that was possible. that fire was WHITE hot.
newton
 
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:58 pm

Re: WTC2 Molten Metal Drip

Postby peterene1 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:00 pm

Some guys from some unnamed site would tell you that you can't judge temeperature by the color.

They would show you red-eye effect and tell you "you see, those eyes can't have 600°C, so this method doesn't work"........

or would they use a picture of glowing watterfall?.................

Of course, any reasonable person would tell you that the color means at least t>900°C.End of line.

eh, I have to edit every post......I mean....

I'm not mad at dr.G, so I would like to settle the situation and say sorry. :oops:
peterene1
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:24 am

PreviousNext



Return to WTC1 and WTC2 - Post Impact to Pre Initiation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron

suspicion-preferred