The 9/11 Forum

We predict cuts between the collapse initation floors and the 105th floor.

Any connection here????

That is the place to look. It was from your original idea (or Achimspok) that I started looking higher in the building.


These are the best glimpses I could get from the N piece. From the Xenomorph clip


frame 98




frame 104




frame112




frame119





It follows behind the w piece. I use the green line over the spandrel wih a hole for reference.


I'm counting at least 11 floors. I'll guess that this comes from just over the airplane hole, left side.


I trace the fall evolution of the n piece at the link below. I'll add the 4 images above to the link soon.

http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=95&MMN_position=229:229



If I had the video skills of femr I'd present this info in a way which is easier to understand. Sorry for the reliance on still images but it is the best I can do.

A world of wonder.


On a related issue, a glance through WTC1 debris photo albums can show that I missed something really big concerning the w face peel.


The question is this: To what degree did the w face perimeter peel carry flooring behind it?

In other words, to what degree was flooring still attached to the w perimeter as it started it's peel outwards. (Split from the core but still attached to the perimeter).


My guess at present is it carried much more flooring than any of us have realized until now.

This is easy to verify by looking at the WTC1 debris from the west and seeing what lies on top of the perimeter sections.

A large photo album of WTC1 debris is available at the following link:

http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/index.php?module=photoalbum&PHPWS_Album_op=view&PHPWS_Album_id=1&PAGER_limit=16&PAGER_start=0&PAGER_section=1


I'll look much closer when I get a chance, but the few photos I have just looked at from the far west shows much more debris lying on top of the peeled perimeter columns than I would have expected from the idea of an avalanche in a chute.


THis debris cannot be confused with WTC2 debris or any other type of debris other than that of the inner contents of WTC1 because of the layout of the WTC complex.

I looked again because of something that T Szamboti said:

The speed of collapse seems to have been kept to about 70% of gravity to allow the outside debris to screen the explosives from view. Of course, the targets would have been the outer core columns and the corners of the perimeters. The spandrel connections closest to the corners would have been the target there.

This means that the peeling would carry flooring with it. It means you will find flooring debris lying over the sheets of perimeter columns far away from the base of the building.

If the avalanche happened before the peeling at any particular level we wouldn't see flooring debris lying so far away from the base.

It also changes the femr mass shedding considerably.


These are new ideas that need work, but debris to the west of WTC1 should give us an answer.


The plot thickens.




Edit: Below is a mix of WTC1 and WTC2 rubble far away from the base of both buildings. It shows us how wrong many of us have been about the movement of flooring and mass shedding

http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/index.php?module=photoalbum&PHPWS_Album_id=1&PHPWS_Photo_op=view&PHPWS_Photo_id=348

Or the one below: WTC1 w side debris from a good 400 feet out. The w perimeter doesn't seem stripped of flooring before it peeled outwards.

http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/index.php?module=photoalbum&PHPWS_Album_id=1&PHPWS_Photo_op=view&PHPWS_Photo_id=316

Major_Tom wrote:To what degree was flooring still attached to the w perimeter as it started it's peel outwards. (Split from the core but still attached to the perimeter).

I'm working on a video to focus on the section you highlighted, but it's way too big to include anything useful in GIF format here. There's a very tiny segment here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHaqUsY9w_I

The section really does appear to have several surprisingly thick floor beams attached and perpendicular to the 'front' face of the descending segment. Watching clips of the falling section over and over again is the only real way to build the mental 3 dimensional image of the descending 'chunk' properly, but doing so does confirm that the 'trailing' beams on the right hand side of the section are projected towards the tower. (They are not external columns bent out of shape)

This brings two further factors to mind:

1) Why are the beams so thick ? The beams do not appear to be part of a standard floor truss assembly, which would mean that we can perhaps pin-point the original location more precisely by cross-referencing with floors known to have more substantial beam based floor sections. (NIST provided details of the varying floor layout types. I'll find the reference). Or perhaps many more floors were constructed with beam based assemblies (rather than trusses) than we/I have been led to believe...
2) The elements I'm highlighting are pretty much devoid of the concrete itself, other than the huge clouds of trailing 'dust', which we are supposed to say is drywall. I would suggest that the identification of floor structures attached to external column assemblies, and stripped of concrete should be treated as reasonable justification to conclude that the dust is primarily/significantly concrete, rather than drywall.

Femr2, the only place I suspect we can see flooring attached to a piece is in WTC2, on a piece ejected from the west side. I mention it is the "WTC2..action..recorded" thread.

The piece you highlight in the clip in your last post is one from the upper block, about 11 floors high and totally unbuckled (like all the rest of the large perimeter sections falling from the upper block of WTC1 and 2).


I'll look closer for attached flooring elsewhere.

I believe that floor elements on top of perimeter sections in the rubble far away from the base of the building will tell us more.

Yup.

This picture is of some of the farthest debris from a footprint: Debris just in front of Winter Garden, a good 500 feet or more from the base of WTC1.

Can anyone tell me what the object is to which the red arrow is pointing?




My guess is that it is a horizontal support for flooring, but it is no ordinary truss.


The high res version of the photo is at the link

http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911_old/Photo_archives/perimeter_columns/911_HighQualityPhotos120.jpg

For those interested, see how many objects other than perimeter column sections you can find in the image. A viewer with a zoom helps.

You will find components associated with flooring throughout the photo.

This is some of the farthest debris and the top of the huge WTC1 w face peel.

These flooring components must have been attached to the back of the w face perimeter peel on it's highest floors.


(That explains all that cement dust trailing the peeling perimeter.)


The damn thing took flooring with it.


How? Perimeter and flooring peeled from the core?

Major_Tom wrote:Debris just in front of Winter Garden, a good 500 feet or more from the base of WTC1.

Here's another couple of photos of the Winter Gardens debris:

High Resolution Version - 2400x3000px/2818.9Kb


High Resolution Version - 616x476px/80.7Kb

We come to an interesting moment where we are forced to re-examine what peeling means.


2 competing theories:


1) A "chute avalanche" (open office space flooring between perimeter and core) separates the perimeter from the core leaving the perimeter unsupported. There is a delay in perimeter movement as the chute debris passes and then the perimeter moves outwards as a whole piece or as very large sheets (peeling).



2) The observed perimeter peeling actually has considerable open office space flooring still attached to it's interior. The peel draqs attached flooring well outside the base. Considerable flooring somehow detaches from core connections but remains attached to the perimeter.





In the first theory, that of a natural or induced chute avalanche, the perimeter acts as a funnel which contains the collapse front. This funnel keeps chute debris within or very close to the footprint. The perimeter channels debris inwards.



In the second theory we should find flooring components scattered over the entire range of known debris.



We have the means by which to verify one idea and discard the other two ways:


1) We look for the distribution of surviving (though badly damaged) flooring components throughout the rubble and especially amohng the rubble farthest from the bases of both buildings.

2) We look at the debris (or lack of) at the base of each chute where, according to the first theory, open office space flooring would have accumulated "trapped and funneled" within the perimeter.


I've already been studying both locations or I wouldn't be posting this.



The results, easy to verify with a little research, are guaranteed to blow your minds.

Stay tuned.

Major_Tom wrote:Debris just in front of Winter Garden, a good 500 feet or more from the base of WTC1.

High Resolution Version - 616x476px/80.7Kb[/quote]

The discoloration around the edges of the mating surface of the perimeter columns is interesting in this photo. It certainly isn't the original color of the primer (I realize there is a G painted on these surfaces but I am not speaking of that).

Joint weakening or destruction is a primary candidate for how the demolitions were accomplished.

T_Szamboti wrote:The discoloration around the edges of the mating surface of the perimeter columns is interesting in this photo. It certainly isn't the original color of the primer (I realize there is a G painted on these surfaces but I am not speaking of that).

Joint weakening or destruction is a primary candidate for how the demolitions were accomplished.

This area ?

femr2 wrote:

T_Szamboti wrote:The discoloration around the edges of the mating surface of the perimeter columns is interesting in this photo. It certainly isn't the original color of the primer (I realize there is a G painted on these surfaces but I am not speaking of that).

Joint weakening or destruction is a primary candidate for how the demolitions were accomplished.

This area ?

Yes, around the edges of the faying surface.

There is a possible innocent reason for it though. That would be if there was no primer on the faying surface to ensure a good seat. If that were true then once exposed it would start to corrode.

I don't know how long after Sept. 11, 2001 the photo was taken.

The column on the lower left of the three sticking out doesn't seem to have any marking painted on it. Can you blow that one up?

T_Szamboti wrote:I don't know how long after Sept. 11, 2001 the photo was taken.

I'll try and find out.

The column on the lower left of the three sticking out doesn't seem to have any marking painted on it. Can you blow that one up?

Sure...

This is the most intriguing line of inquiry on the board.

This picture is of some of the farthest debris from a footprint: Debris just in front of Winter Garden, a good 500 feet or more from the base of WTC1.

Can anyone tell me what the object is to which the red arrow is pointing?




My guess is that it is a horizontal support for flooring, but it is no ordinary truss.


The high res version of the photo is at the link

http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911_old/Photo_archives/perimeter_columns/911_HighQualityPhotos120.jpg

That piece marked with the red arrow is important because there are at least 3 other pieces with the same cross section just behind it leaning against the building (visible in higher res version).

The 3 pieces seem to be interconnected via another piece.


If someone cares to confirm that the piece is associated with special purpose flooring and is not some kind of vertical support, then we have already proven that flooring was connected to the back of the west side peel.


Considering the condition of these pieces, if flooring, we can see they were carried away from the building on the back of the large west face peel before they were hit by the "crushing avalanche" (zone B).


Htf is that physically possible? But first let's try to confirm it is flooring. Feedback?

I opine lower or middle mechanical stories flooring.

But I can only make out the one piece with the red arrow.