The 9/11 Forum

mehmeti wrote:The core columns must be exploded in order to make the upper part fall by flipping eastward. Without that, even if all OOS floors collapse, the upper part should remain vertical.

That’s also consistent with the prior collapse of the WTC1 antenna.

Right. The tilts in both towers could not happen without the cores being removed.

The core columns large faces at floors about 77 give about 25” large. http://wtcmodel.wikidot.com/nist-core-column-data With 2x 1cm large welding, it gives 125cm2 surface par core columns, using 30gr/cm2 of RDX that makes 3.75kg/column. Let’s say they cut out 500 and 1000 rows; that make 3.75x16= 60kg for all.

Yes, I always used the lowest possible value to cripple the column - 4kg of hexogene.

The explosions are situated inside the building; the sound projection direction is horizontal toward exterior and has a large expansion area before getting out. The shortest distance to be heard is some 1000m. Also the explosions may be delayed with a small gap of some milliseconds to reduce the addition of pressure wave. All those facts contribute to the reduction of the noise.

Are you kidding me?

bla...bla...]exterior and has a large expansion area before getting out. The shortest distance to be heard is some 1000m.

I realize that, but you're wrong. The soundwaves don't behave that way and 60 kilos of RDX???? That big explosion would "rapture" the eardrums of everyone within that distance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2nGtVURPlE some 30kg@200m, and those blast happend within some 0,1s. Listen to the fra**ing echo!

And the blast wind from 60kg of explosives would push an allmighty cloud of debris and smoke out of the windows.

Forget shape charges, it’s a Steven Jones made disinfo to support his thermite theory.

So monroe's effect is a conspiracy theory invented by Steven E. Jones? All my various Gods.

Also the explosions may be delayed with a small gap of some milliseconds to reduce the addition of pressure wave.

I'm afraid that you have to fire your charges within 0,5s-1s and there's 15 of them. in other words It would still sound like a big bomb. The continuos roar is Hoffman's wet dream at best.

All those facts contribute to the reduction of the noise.

No, I'm afraid that the only factor contributing to the reduction of noise are your fingers in your ears and the blindfold on your eyes.

The core columns must be exploded in order to make the upper part fall by flipping eastward. Without that, even if all OOS floors collapse, the upper part should remain vertical.

That’s also consistent with the prior collapse of the WTC1 antenna.

People on this forum are no joke, deal with that.

I put a suitable 1 kg charge at each of the relevant columns = total 24 kg. POUFF - they go off

You could also try to tickle them with more succes.

total 24 kg, No big noise!

So I need another 240 charges to blow off and destroy WTC1!

Warning: C tantrum often leads to temper tantrum in adolescent individuals, good.
____________________________________________________________________________

Nonsense free zone:

So, the dead weight of the core columns is absolutely unsufficient to cause the observed IB that means that we have agreed on the fact that majority of the bwoing was caused by the rotation of the heavy floorslab?

And, would there be any significant load transvered via the hattruss (if the columns were cut at 104th floor....) to the exterior?

The rotated floorslab would also make the exterior unsupported for several stories, right? (pancake theory). Would be the amount of unsupporting comparable to the sagging floors and the NIST model? Did NIST take the loss of support into account in their models? Or am I totaly off?

Is there any inward bowing generating mechanism for the south tower? Could it be achieved with the help of 104th floor cuts? If so, how?

Mehmeti, Heiwa:

Do you know on which floors the welds are located? No. (83, 80, 77, 75...)

Do the first two rows of forceful ejections line up with these floors? No.

WE ARE MODELLING BY MATCHING THEORY WITH PHYSICAL OBSERVATION.


The last post by Heiwa is spam. Moderator, please get it out of here.


Mehmeti, do you have measurements, numbers, video, anything which supports your ideas for WTC2?

IF YES, SHOW. If no, do not keep repeating the ideas.


This thread is for models which match physical observation. You are offering us nothing but your opinion.

If you have no numbers, no matching observations, no visual models of mechanisms, DO NOT POST HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Much work has been done to show that the east perimeter split into two sections (upper and lower) along the red line in the picture below.



In the gifs provided you are witnessing the splitting happen.

The ejections being discussed line up with the breaking of the red lines along the 78th floor.


You can see evidence that they are the last to break. First the bolts along the 80th row break, then the 80th floor slab spandrels, then the 79th floor bolts break, then the 79th floor slab spandrels....

All without a trace of concrete dust or drywall dust.

Only after these 4 different sets of bolts break do we even arrive at the 78th floor (bolts still holding).


Note, you never see the 78th floor bolts break before the large ejections of dust. They bend but you never see them break.

At the moment the shock moves through the floors and columns the bolts seem to be still holding.



I may limit this thread to just a few participants if the noise level rises.


Achimspok, the large black thing we see falling MUST be a perimeter section. How can it not be?

So how can a perimeter section break free in that position?




The blackened falling object cannot be anything but a perimeter section (unless it can squeeze out a window less than 4 ft wide).

How can this piece just fall off the building without prior bolt manipulation?


And remember, even if the bolts break in the image below the free object has to fall 3 or 4 more feet before making contact with the slab.




Achimspok, another big problem is that all the visible 78th floor bolt locations shoot dust out at the same time. You need to break the 80th floor column bolts first, then the spandrels, then the 79th floor column bolts, then spandrels before arriving at the 78th floor bolts. Why would each subgroup of 9 columns go through such a complex process and ultimately "slap" the lowest floor slab at the same time?

Where is randomness? If one group acts as you say it may make sense. But three different groups of 9 columns lead to three simultaneous "slaps"?

Do you see how there are 6 groups of bolts along the 78th floor?

We can only see the three on the right in the gifs. Why no dust for the 79th floor breaks? 80th floor breaks? No dust for spandrel breaks (which are along the freaking flooring)?

How can spandrels break and leave no dust ejection? Are spandrels not the floor perimeter themselves?

Why are all three bottom breaks simultaneous on right side? If we could see the left three breaks, would they be simultaneous too?


In any of the six cases, can anyone actually show me the 78th floor bolts breaking naturally?

I see them bend...and then I see a "punch type" shock administered which pulverizes significant concrete. Even though they are visible I never see them break before the "punch shock".

Do you? Can you show me?

Major_Tom wrote:We can only see the three on the left in the gifs.

I'll see what I can do.

Why no dust for the 79th floor breaks? 80th floor breaks? No dust for spandrel breaks (which are along the freaking flooring).

I suggest the arrows indicating the higher floor show (more clearly for the one on the right) simultaneous ejecta from the floors above.

I see them bend...and then I see a "punch type" shock administered which pulverizes significant concrete. Even though they are visible I never see them break before the "punch shock".

It seems very clear that the ejecta could not be a result of the column break themselves.
The event which caused the ejecta would seem the more logical source of the break.

Is it an illusion, or does the upper segment of one column detach, move upwards, and rotate after 'the punch'?

Edited to put quotes around the punch. It looks like a mechanical impact from the interior, but that could be an illusion, too. Snapping should be pretty violent.

OneWhiteEye wrote:Is it an illusion, or does the upper segment of one column detach, move upwards, and rotate after the punch?

I don't think it's an illusion...
I think it's *vaguely* like this...(rough quick render)...


I think it would have to be one of two, er, modes...

a) The top of the lower column separated
-or-
b) The bottom of the upper column separated

Both imply a possible buckle in the column, and incredibly strong column-column connection.

It seems very clear that the ejecta could not be a result of the column break themselves.
The event which caused the ejecta would seem the more logical source of the break.

I agree.

The perimeter sections in question (with 78th floor bolts) have "spring" only in piece under the break. The top piece folds in and does not have a "tight spring" nature anymore. There is no reason to beleive the top piece is under extreme spring tension anymore. So what provides the "slap"?


I see some ejections from the 79th and 80th floor bolt connections also.


That piece mentioned couldn't have broken off from the lower part because I found the whole section in the rubble and it was intact (shown in previous post). But something is breaking off.

Even if we consider the portion breaking off as evidence the bolts finally snapped, notice how the large concrete dust ejecta is not the result of the break but shoots out at the same time as the break.

The break does not cause the concrete pulverization. it seems PULVERIZATION and BREAK are both caused by the same shock.

So how can the break cause the shock?

Major_Tom wrote:That piece mentioned couldn't have broken off because I found the whole section in the rubble and it was intact (shown in previous post).

That would depend upon which column the piece broke from...upper/lower.
I've watched the clip until my eyes bleed and I cannot see how it could NOT have separated.
It's a segment above the initial ejecta level, which we're pointing at being the bolt connection plane...

Slightly unrelated...Are you absolutely sure about the orientation of the GZ segment ? I've often wondered whether it was *upside down* or not.

femr2 wrote:I think it's *vaguely* like this...(rough quick render)...

Sorry, I was a little slow on the uptake - it pays to read everything, I know that. My first instinct was to shut up, should've listened.

It absolutely looks like a punch from behind.

Can't be upside down or it would have to do a 180 degree rotation too. The front is facing east.

I agree something breaks off.

I have so much more I want to post but we have to understand the present topic first.


(For femr: The first two rows of forceful ejections are separated by about 4 floors. The first row seems to be floor 78. For the second row I wouldn't be surprised if it lines up with the floor slab in the mechanical area.)


It does look like a punch from behind (6 punches from behind) causes all observables.

Major_Tom wrote:We can only see the three on the left in the gifs.

Sorry about the larger file-size...

We have one more *cauliflower* to the left, then a gap.
Doesn't coincide directly with the core width.
Theres an additional ejecta further left, but difficult to see. Will show with separate footage.

We expect only a three column width between the two centermost ejecta according to the 78th floor bolt pattern



It is obvous which structural components line up with the ejecta.

Major_Tom wrote:Mehmeti, Heiwa:

Do you know on which floors the welds are located? No. (83, 80, 77, 75...)

Do the first two rows of forceful ejections line up with these floors? No.

WE ARE MODELLING BY MATCHING THEORY WITH PHYSICAL OBSERVATION.

Mt,

You are good in observation. But others may be better in modeling and explanation of the facts. It would be good to do not exclude anybody here. We need all sincere people.

This is the first time you ask me floor numbers. It’s a right question.

- The first explosions of the core columns happen on floor 83. It begins the flip of the upper part at the middle of the building. That pushes on the perimeter columns on floors 82, 81, 80.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFr3QeCzVgY

- This first explosion also breaks out the falling blackish perimeter portions in this gif.

- The second explosion of core columns happens on floor 80, just 3ft upper the two skylobby floors 79 and 78. The explosions create ejections on floor 80, but also on floor 79. Why? Because the explosions happen inside the lift shafts. So they propagate on both floor 80 and 79. As the floors 78 and 79 are a larger space (see Nist report NISTNCSTAR 1-1.pdf figure 2.5 on page 21), the overpressure gets into that area also.

- During that time the flip is enough progressed, and the perimeter columns break out under the compression. The overpressure begins to get out on floor 79 at broken perimeter columns junctions.