The 9/11 Forum

Intelligent and evidence-based discussion of 9/11 issues

Skip to content

v

Welcome
Welcome!

Our vision is to provide a home to sincere 9/11 researchers free from biased moderation and abusive tirades from other members.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which only gives you access to view the discussions. New registration has been temporarily enabled; take advantage of it!

WTC 6 Molten Concrete Anomaly

Topics of a general nature, not specific to a timeline.

WTC 6 Molten Concrete Anomaly

Postby metamars » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:33 pm

This recent 911blogger post http://911blogger.com/node/19014 has photos from a display at New York Police Museum of government firearms encased in formerly molten concrete, at least according to the verbiage attached to the display.

From the blogger post:

Jet fuel and office contents can produce a maximum burn temperature of 1,800 degrees, over 1,000 degrees cooler than the sustained 3,000+ degree burn temperatures required to liquefy construction grade concrete.


The actual display includes this text:

Fire temperatures were so intense that concrete melted like lava around anything in its path.
metamars
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:25 am

 

Re: WTC 6 Molten Concrete Anomaly

Postby Dr. G » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:48 pm

Metamars:

Thanks for the link to the photos of "molten concrete" found in the ruins of WTC 6. I have seen that picture before and I wondered, (even marvelled!), at that time about "molten concrete" in the WTC rubble pile.

Concrete is not really a single chemical compound but a mixture of cement and crushed rock (aggregate). Cement itself has a range of compositions but calcium silicates are the main components of which the mineral alite, Ca3SiO5, is the most abundant. According to the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics alite melts at ~ 1900 deg C. This is certainly a very high temperature but not nearly as high as the "3,000+ degree temperature" quoted in the 911Blogger post.
Dr. G
 
Posts: 521
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:29 pm

Re: WTC 6 Molten Concrete Anomaly

Postby metamars » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:31 pm

Dr. G wrote:Metamars:

Thanks for the link to the photos of "molten concrete" found in the ruins of WTC 6. I have seen that picture before and I wondered, (even marvelled!), at that time about "molten concrete" in the WTC rubble pile.

Concrete is not really a single chemical compound but a mixture of cement and crushed rock (aggregate). Cement itself has a range of compositions but calcium silicates are the main components of which the mineral alite, Ca3SiO5, is the most abundant. According to the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics alite melts at ~ 1900 deg C. This is certainly a very high temperature but not nearly as high as the "3,000+ degree temperature" quoted in the 911Blogger post.


Thanks. Any comments about secondary, tertiary, etc. constituents?

Do you agree or disagree that these specimens should be studied in a lab? If the concrete really was "like lava", then this would seem to be a real anomaly, as I've never heard of such a thing before. OTOH, it's not like I've ever worked for a fire department, either.
metamars
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:25 am

Re: WTC 6 Molten Concrete Anomaly

Postby stundie » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:18 pm

If there is molten concrete, then that would mean the temperatures were high enough for molten steel to be present as reported by various people at GZ too.

I can't wait to see the so called debunking of this.....it'll be a pseudoskeptical delight! lol

p.s. I've actually heard of molten concrete before in 2 other things while challenging debunkers because according to them, there is no such thing as molten concrete, one is from a nuclear reactor and the other is from a company who specialised in the cutting of concrete using thermal lancing.

The website is down now but I have the quotes.
http://www.tricee.co.za/thermal%20lancing.htm
Tricee wrote:The burning "Lance" filled with steel rods and feeding oxygen to the tip of the lance from a cylinder attached to the rear, burns at a much higher temperature than the melting temperature of concrete. This "cuts effortlessly through concrete at a much higher burning temperature. The process is more quiet than Concrete Sawing and also much quicker. A lava like flow of melting concrete, traps the heat from the lance, protecting the surrounding area. After cooling down, the lava like crust is removed with very little effort. For more information on Thermal Lancing contact us on 011 452 4413.
Life is a comedy to those who think and a tragedy to those who feel.
stundie
 
Posts: 604
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:57 pm

Re: WTC 6 Molten Concrete Anomaly

Postby David B. Benson » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:54 am

(1) There are no eye-witness reports of molten, i.e., liquid, steel. THere is one reliable report of molten metal in a basement of WTC 6. Most likely lead from the millions of rounds of target ammunition stored there.

(2) What is wallboard made from? I would suppose that sufficiently heated it would also 'flow'.

(3) Ther fires in WTC 6 was unusually hot. Maybe in part from the ammunition?
David B. Benson
 
Posts: 902
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:29 am

Re: WTC 6 Molten Concrete Anomaly

Postby metamars » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:21 am

I went to the NYC Police Museum today to verify that the article and accompanying text were genuine. They are, indeed.

Furthermore, there were a few shards of glass, with the following text, which I copied down:

Glass was a rare find at Ground Zero, where these shards were recovered. The collapse and fires pulverized and melted most of the glass from the Twin Towers 43,600 windows.


I find this 'explanation' unsettling. Before the collapse, most of the 43,600 windows were not melted by the fire. While huge hotspots developed, with the true cause not definitively known, in photos taken soon after collapse, we still don't see shards of glass on the topmost visible layer. So, melting of glass as an explanation makes no sense for this layer, either before or after the collapse.

So, we are left with "collapse" itself as an explanation, by which they mean impact and kinetic energy. By such reasoning, why do we not hear of plane impacts, or even high speed car impacts, "pulverizing" the glass of those vehicles? I know cars have special glass ("tempered", I think it's called) to prevent it from breaking into shards (it tends to crack, but still stay together, stuck to it's 'skin'), but since skyscraper windows can also fall out (hurricane, bad design + vibration), it makes sense to construct it similarly.

I suppose it might be a worthwhile design goal to make glass that pulverizes, though that's debatable since I don't think breathing in pulverized window glass dust is going to much healthier than breathing in fiberglass.
metamars
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:25 am

Re: WTC 6 Molten Concrete Anomaly

Postby metamars » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:29 am

This tinyurl http://tinyurl.com/a388ro states a concrete melting point of 1800-2400 C. (via http://www.weldcare.co.uk/app10.htm ). I guess they mean "enough to make it able to flow."
metamars
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:25 am

Re: WTC 6 Molten Concrete Anomaly

Postby David B. Benson » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:19 pm

The glass in the tower windows was 1/4" plate. At about 1 psi the glass breaks. Since this overpressure was realized very rapidly, it broke into small pieces which were then 'pulverized' by having lots of heavy materials drop on the remains.

No surprises here.
David B. Benson
 
Posts: 902
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:29 am

Re: WTC 6 Molten Concrete Anomaly

Postby Dr. G » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:17 pm

Before anyone gets too carried away with the suggestion that there was "molten concrete" in the WTC rubble pile I would like to see some chemical analysis carried out on any such alleged materials.
The ambient environment at or near Ground Zero during and after 9/11 was very hot and very corrosive. It is well documented that copious quantities of chlorine and/or hydrochloric acid were produced from the combustion of halogenated materials such as PVC used throughout the WTC complex. The highly corrosive gaseous products from the burning of plastics would attack concrete forming species such as calcium chloride. This is a low melting compound (m.p. ~ 780 deg C) and may therefore have formed a molten slag in regions of the WTC exposed to fires. A chemical analysis of samples such as the "molten concrete" found in the ruins of WTC 6 could support or eliminate any hypothesis as to the origin of such materials.
Dr. G
 
Posts: 521
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:29 pm

Re: WTC 6 Molten Concrete Anomaly

Postby David B. Benson » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:25 pm

Otherwise, the so-called molten concrete looks similar to various results of some volcano eruptions. The heated materials form some sort of chemical bonds; for concrete, made of Portland cement, the water poured onto Ground Zero may well have strengthened the resulting mess.
David B. Benson
 
Posts: 902
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:29 am

Re: WTC 6 Molten Concrete Anomaly

Postby Nanothermite » Fri May 22, 2009 5:35 am

This patent http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5532449/description.html is for the use of thermite in cutting concrete, so if there was thermite, thermate or nanothermite used [now seems the latter was], it could account for some of the molten concrete found. While the cement portion might melt at about 1750C, the aggregate likely melts at a different temperature, dependent on what aggregate was used. The concrete would flow, however, even if the aggregate didn't melt. Obviously, these temperatures couldn't be reached in the official version of events and again point to CD with a high-temperature agent.
Nanothermite
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:41 pm
Location: Europe

Re: WTC 6 Molten Concrete Anomaly

Postby Dr. G » Fri May 22, 2009 11:53 am

Nanothermite,

I have explained how corrosive combustion products from the burning of plastics could make exposed concrete appear to "melt".

Besides, why would anyone want to cut the WTC concrete with nanothermite?

Do they normally cut the concrete floors of steel frame buildings during a controlled demolition?
Dr. G
 
Posts: 521
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:29 pm

Re: WTC 6 Molten Concrete Anomaly

Postby stundie » Fri May 22, 2009 2:59 pm

Dr.G,

I do not think nanothermite thought that nanothermite was designed to cut the concrete, neither do I think that anyone as ever argued that the concrete in the WTC was cut intentionally.

Making your point a little bit of a strawman.

The molten concrete would be a possible by product of a nanothermite reaction if it was used to cut the steel.

Regarding your burning of plastics argument, how does a kerosene/jet fuel fire combust office materials under the rubble that are oxygen starved to degrees of 780c? :shock:
Life is a comedy to those who think and a tragedy to those who feel.
stundie
 
Posts: 604
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:57 pm

Re: WTC 6 Molten Concrete Anomaly

Postby femr2 » Fri May 22, 2009 4:48 pm

I've only just noticed this thread, but the only solution to any argument would appear to be chemical analysis of the actual physical evidence available in the museum, to determine if the matter encasing the guns is actually concrete that had previously melted.

Is anyone in a position to request that analysis ?
femr2
 
Posts: 2760
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:08 am
Location: UK

Re: WTC 6 Molten Concrete Anomaly

Postby Nanothermite » Mon May 25, 2009 6:10 pm

Dr. G wrote:Before anyone gets too carried away with the suggestion that there was "molten concrete" in the WTC rubble pile I would like to see some chemical analysis carried out on any such alleged materials.
The ambient environment at or near Ground Zero during and after 9/11 was very hot and very corrosive. It is well documented that copious quantities of chlorine and/or hydrochloric acid were produced from the combustion of halogenated materials such as PVC used throughout the WTC complex. The highly corrosive gaseous products from the burning of plastics would attack concrete forming species such as calcium chloride. This is a low melting compound (m.p. ~ 780 deg C) and may therefore have formed a molten slag in regions of the WTC exposed to fires. A chemical analysis of samples such as the "molten concrete" found in the ruins of WTC 6 could support or eliminate any hypothesis as to the origin of such materials.


While new to this forum, I'm a 50-something life-long researcher on false-flag and covert operations. 911 struck me on the day it happened as one of those entities most-likely and all subsequent information I've seen has only futher confirmed that. I also, though new here, see you as the [or one of the] 'professional skeptics' that sprinkle speak-truth-to-power and the Empire-is-naked forums. You are full of straw-dogs and red herrings, indeed. No one would mistake melted plastic for concrete mass and the 'meteorite' and other objects were too heavy to be anything but concrete and metal. Your 'arguements' are transparent debunking bunk - not even logic based IMO; just to throw-in a measure of doubt to possibly fool the newbees or naive. I was pointing out that thermite which is looking more and more like the extra energy in the CD and the means of the CD would not have trouble liquifying some concrete it was near, as well as the steel, which would be the main target for CD. Yes, testing would be nice, but as there were only sham investigtations [like JFK assassination, RFK and MLK assassinations and most all of the covert ops and false-flag ops of the past - patterns!], we don't have all the exact information we'd like - it seems the Deep Political struture wants it that way. Nothing new there. So, citizen researchers will have to do the work here - as was true with the JFK Assassination. I personally see a direct line from Dallas to 911 http://www.joanmellen.net/9.11.11.22article.html - with many 'dots' in between. http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2007/ProfScottJFK,911,andWar.pdf The government nor 'offical conspiracy theory' get the 'benefit of the doubt, quite the opposite. The elites that rule by lies and secret operations have more than proven themselves to be suspect from the get-go. Nothing about the official version of 911 fits well with logic nor physics. The investigations where purposely flawed [cover-ups] and controlled. This is the all too old pattern we have seen from WW2 and even before......
Nanothermite
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:41 pm
Location: Europe

Next



Return to WTC1 and WTC2 - General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron

suspicion-preferred