The 9/11 Forum

by **Dan** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:08 pm

Hi. This is my first post so please be gentle.

Not sure if this clip has come up for discussion yet. Warning: It is disturbing as it features somebody stuck in the building and what may be a person ejected from the building.

Its from the NIST FOI request release.
Clip: WNYW Dub 1 35

Here is what NIST say about it:

"It is conceivable that the pressure pulse generated within WTC 2 at 9:37:04 a.m. could have resulted from the sudden collapse of the hanging object, presumed to be a portion of the 83rd floor slab, observed through open 82nd floor windows. While the rapid collapse of a large secion of a floor slab would likely generate a substantial pressure pulse, evidence supporting such a conclusion is circumstantial, at best. The actual collapse of the object was not observed, and there is no evidence that it occurred rapidly or even at this time. The appearance of large fires on the 82nd floor shortly after the pressure pulse is an indication that something happened on this floor around this time. On the other hand, most of the direct effects of the pressure pulse were observed on lower floors, particularly floors 77 through 79. The available pathways for transporting the pressure pulse are unknown, but it might have been expected that its largest effects would have been apparent near the floor where it was generated. It must be concluded that, while it is possible that the pressure pulse resulted from a partial collapse of the hanging object seen on the east side of the tower, the evidence is far from conclusive." - NIST NCSTAR 1-5A Ch. 9 Appx. C, p.55/268.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k_bq7ZmM_8

Things to take note of:

At about 8-9 seconds there is a bang sound. Could be anything however.
At 50 - 55 seconds there is what looks like a “Cutter Charge” (not sure how else to describe it) peeling its way around a column.
At 57 seconds something is blown out at the bottom left.
At 59 seconds at top of the screen another blow out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT6vyXCysXk
Slow motion of blowout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4yGCO_1cE4
De-interlaced to half-speed to preserve all frames from 60fps footage (15 frames = 1/4 of a second) -- cropped, zoomed, and slightly stabilized of “Cutter charge”.

“Cutter charge” cropped and repeated
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMnTGieS9Hk
The the adjacent columns have been sliced to exactly the same height.

“Cutter charge” cropped, repeated and slowed down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piJ2fL9aPwE

Apologies if this clip has already been studied. If not, what do people make of it?
Thanks for you time.

by **OneWhiteEye** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:30 pm

Hi Dan. Welcome.

It did come up somewhere, not sure off the top of my head. I'll try to find it.

My reaction is this: There are things which will 'blow' in a fire, even in regular office buildings. It needn't be combustion, just over pressurization. However, I'd be hard pressed to identify a cause. If it were a cutter charge, presumably it would be an accidental discharge unless there was some advantage to dribbling the cuts in over a period of time without regard to how anomalous this may appear.

The ejection is local and not terribly energetic. The expulsion itself is relatively slow exhaust velocity. The perimeter itself is unscathed. The question arises: if it were a cutting charge, what was it cutting?

Bottom line: I can't take a stand on it since there's no means to determine the significance of this isolated incident. Others may feel differently.

by **Darkwing** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:13 pm

I was going to say that the blast looks more like pressure blast from an exploding heater or something, but the cutter charge video is actually more interesting.

It appears to be a straight horizontal "cut" along the column, even a little smoke coming off the front of the column along the same line.

I had always looked at the blast, but the cutter seems much more interesting now.

by **Melville** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:41 am

This is the discussion from before--(thought I'd move it from The Pub section to have it organized here):

iconoclast wrote:Has this video been discussed anywhere on this forum?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne1FJBVkh4s

If so please link me to the page.

I had never seen it before and I'm not even sure how I found it last night.
A pretty large object is ejected through one of the "dust jets", maybe a office chair, or possibly a person?
But, in addition to that... it seems like it's quite a bit before the collapse.. So, I don't see how it could be a result of the collapse?
I guess it could have been a backdraft?

Melville wrote: I tried looking through the dust jet threads, but most of those seem to be post-initiation oriented. Started to look on jref, too, but then decided it wasn't worth the trouble. I would be curious to hear what femr2, Major Tom, et al., make of it---how about you OWE? It is hard for me to imagine it being an overpressure caused by failing floors or such.

femr2 wrote:It starts very slowly, then speeds up a little.

It's only one window by the looks of it.

Not sure what the ejection is (bit macarbe but...GIF)

Some kind of backdraft I'd imagine. Possibly from a window being opened or broken.

Assume there is windows at that level to break ?

Definitely not an explosive effect. Faaaar too slow initially.

Melville wrote:I wanted to add that the soft piano jazz in background creeps the f--- out of me.

---
I see the slowness----here is some basic info on backdraft for anyone curious http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backdraft
That seems consistent with what is described in wikipedia, for what it's worth.

SanderO wrote:Whatever is in that GIF its just above or at the mechanical floors and it just might be coming from and HVAC grille.

Look at the floor plans of the mechanical floors

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidenc ... A-65_0.png

and

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidenc ... A-63_0.png

and you can see there were lots of grilles and not windows and perhaps even more interesting is that the building "envelope" at the mechanical floors was several feet behind the facade panels / skin. The HVAC system required that fresh air be used in heating and cooling and that fresh air be introduced into the HVAC system and obviously interior air expelled. All this exchange of air between inside and outside air was taking place at the 4 - 3 story high mechanical sections.

So when you look at the building on those floors remember that the spaces between columns are no windows by grilles.

iconoclast wrote:
Not sure what the ejection is (bit macarbe but...GIF)

Your GIF makes it look like a person, which is creepy as hell.
But comparing the size of the object to the guy who was climbing on the outside it seems quite a bit bigger, just from eyeballing it.

Some kind of backdraft I'd imagine. Possibly from a window being opened or broken.

Assume there is windows at that level to break ?

Definitely not an explosive effect. Faaaar too slow initially.

How can you tell the difference between a backdraft and an explosion?
Aren't they both explosions?

I wanted to add that the soft piano jazz in background creeps the f--- out of me.

Agreed, some guy in one of the youtube channels said this.

I hear music....(How deep is your love)

Music was played at the WW2 death camps to keep the prisoners docile on their way to the gas chambers.

If that's true, even more creepy!

....

I stumbled on this at 911 blogger I think, which I don't have bookmarked anymore so I don't even know how I ended up there.
It's in relation to the video I linked.

I freeze framed and I wasn't convinced it was a human, but rather, some kind of debis.

NIST says that too, so I can go along with that, but the explanation for the event, is pretty tough for me to go along with ....

Here is how NIST explained it......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne1FJBVkh4s

BTW-That person climbing outside fell off about 1 minute after the debris "flew out" the window.

"The nearby fire on the 80th floor and the smoke coming from window 79-351 forced a third person at this location to climb outside onto the face of the tower. This person tried to climb down the outside of the tower and ultimately fell at 9:38:18 a.m." page 50/268
http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR% ... px%20C.pdf

This all happened around the time(9:37 a.m.)that the pentagon got hit,.... and they see what we do...."piece of debris was ejected from a window, 77-355, on the 77th floor at an extremely high velocity."

"The video shot from the WTC plaza captured an intriguing event at 9:37:04 a.m. A jet of air, dust, and a large piece of debris was ejected from a window, 77-355, on the 77th floor at an extremely high velocity. Longer distance videos show that puffs of smoke and or dust appeared simultaneously on the east face from several open windows near the center of the 78th floor and from open windows on the north side of the 79th floor. Interestingly, the smoke flow from the windows on the west sides of the 79th and 80th floors, which had decreased markedly by this time, did not increase. Within 14 s of this release, a larger fire either grew or became visible near the center of the east face on the 82 floor." page 50/268
http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR% ... px%20C.pdf

They call it a "pressure pulse". And here is their explanation.....

"It is conceivable that the pressure pulse generated within WTC 2 at 9:37:04 a.m. could have resulted from the sudden collapse of the hanging object, presumed to be a portion of the 83rd floor slab, observed through open 82 floor windows. While the rapid collapse of a large section of a floor slab would likely generate a substantial pressure pulse, evidence supporting such a conclusion is circumstantial, at best. The actual collapse of the object was not observed, and there is no evidence that it occurred rapidly or even at this time. The appearance of large fires on the 82nd floor shortly after the pressue pulse is an indication that something happened on this floor around this time. On the other hand, most of the direct effects of the pressure pulse were observed on lower floors, particularly floors 77 through 79. The available pathways for transporting the pressue pulse are unknown, but it might have been expected that its largest effects would have been apparent near the floor where it was generated. It must be concluded that, while it is possible that the pressure pulse resulted from a partial collapse of the hanging object seen on the east side of the tower, the evidence is far from conclusive." page 55/268
http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR% ... px%20C.pdf

It sounds like they are saying a floor slab 6 floors above might have collapsed and caused that.

That doesn't seem to be a very good explanation for the "pressue pulses" forty floors down from a fire. Using their own words...."it might have been expected that its largest effects would have been apparent near the floor where it was generated."

But anyway, that seems to be their explanation.

by **Dan** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:38 am

Thanks for that. So nobody has looked at the "cutter charge" (for want of a btter description) aspect of the clip yet?

by **SanderO** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:29 pm

Dan,

My problem is that I don't know what a cutter charge looks like and would know one from any other sort of energetic expulsion of gas with dust, smoke and particulate matter. We can see ejections / puffs of material shooting out, but how can we know what actually CAUSED them?

If you see a falling tree can you tell if it was from the work of am axeman, the wind or a truck that knocked it over or some other cause?

by **Dan** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:55 pm

I am not saying it IS a cutter charge at all. I just wanted some opinons.

A very quick youtube search resulted in this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn-MCCZ3O1M

I dont suppose anybody will be able to give a final answer as to the cause of this effect.
I just thought it was in intersting clip. Its intersting the way it appears to burn in a straight line around the column and I wonder what could account for that.

by **femr2** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:02 pm

Dan wrote:It's intersting the way it appears to burn in a straight line around the column and I wonder what could account for that.

The discussion should, for usefulness, focus upon what else could cause such behaviour.

A cutter charge is out in my book....it would be instant. It's not.

I have to include the possibility of the internal box-column space becoming very hot (and pressurised?) from heat source in other areas and fracturing at the seams.

That could result in something similar ? (Especially if the column was under extreme lateral load, at those very seams ?)

All other possibilities welcome.

by **femr2** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:06 pm

Or how about if the bolted joint between two perimeter columns began to fracture ? Could that allow an oxygen influx into a hot region allowing for such behaviour ?

Etc...

by **Darkwing** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:45 pm

A cutter charge is out in my book....it would be instant.

A thermite cutter charge would not be instant... Cutter charge is still very much in on that count.

Before Cole did his experiment you may have had a point.

Could that allow an oxygen influx into a hot region allowing for such behaviour ?

If it were a sudden flare up of a flame that might the case, but it doesn't look anything like that. It looks like a straight edge.

There are only two plausible explanations I can think of aside from a charge: Video artifact or some sort of bad weld/joint that is heating more rapidly than the surrounding steel. Implausible I know. It doesn't appear to obviously be an video artifact, so the only reason to dismiss a cutter charge as the starting assumption is cognitive dissonance.

Maybe we aren't looking at the same thing? Just after the little white puff there is a lick of flame that appears to come from inside the building, moments after you can see a little puff of white smoke that appears to originate from the outside of the column. It is is this moment I am referring to.

The lick of flame could easily be from some air coming from inside.

I wouldn't say it is DEFINITELY a thermite cutter charge, but I believe that would be the most reasonable assumption to make if this were an isolated event (i.e. if we knew nothing else about this particular clip).

The clearest spot to see it is around 20 seconds in, right at the front of the column where the red flame comes from. Just above where the little white flare came out.

The 9/11 Forum

WNYW Dub 1 35 "ejection" and "cutter"

WNYW Dub 1 35 "ejection" and "cutter"

Re: WNYW Dub 1 35 "ejection" and "cutter"

Re: WNYW Dub 1 35 "ejection" and "cutter"

Re: WNYW Dub 1 35 "ejection" and "cutter"

Re: WNYW Dub 1 35 "ejection" and "cutter"

Re: WNYW Dub 1 35 "ejection" and "cutter"

Re: WNYW Dub 1 35 "ejection" and "cutter"

Re: WNYW Dub 1 35 "ejection" and "cutter"

Re: WNYW Dub 1 35 "ejection" and "cutter"

Re: WNYW Dub 1 35 "ejection" and "cutter"

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