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Did WTC 7 fall "too fast"?

Analysis of fire and collapse theories and examination of related evidence.

Re: Did WTC 7 fall "too fast"?

Postby Major_Tom on Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:04 pm

Relatively simple energy transfer calculations applied to a crush-up of WTC 7 are able to reproduce collapse times under 8 seconds, so I have no problem with fast collapse times per se.



But from the info in your OP, actual measurements from real CDs seem the best way to judge whether the speed of the WTC7 fall makes any sense at all.


You have raised 2 great points, both mathematically testable, by which we can strongly suspect second party involvement in the WTC7 collapse,

1) Fall time far exceeds even known CDs
2) Gravitational acceleration during a portion of the collapse.

(note I don't even mention the extreme symmetry, but it is a third point)


HERE IS YOUR "SMOKING GUN", FOLKS!!!!!!!


Ouestions:

Why are we over on the WTC1, 2 thread "pissing around" with details when we have already found what we are looking for with WTC7?


Remember that our debate is over whether there is evidence of second party involvement in the physical damage of 9-11-01.


Dr G, you occasionally refer to the suggestion of second party involvement on 9-11-01 as a "wild conspiracy theory". In view of your own research into WTC7, why would you hold that view?


If one of you would like to write a good, solid paper on 9-11 sure to create a storm, why not compare data on WTC7 with known demolitions and by using the work of this Yarimer fellow mentioned in the OP?

Why wouldn't we contact Mr Yarimer with our WTC7 data to ask his opinion, not as "conspiracy buffs" but as a neutral party, as "skeptics" trying to understand the fall time and g acceleration?
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Re: Did WTC 7 fall "too fast"?

Postby Major_Tom on Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:08 am

Yes, I mentioned Yarimer's paper briefly before on PhysOrg, but I have since found another paper by this author. The two papers are:

"Factors Affecting the Numerical Modelling of Demolition by Explosives" In Transactions on the Built Environment, Vol 8 (1994)

"The Effect of Rubble Accumulation on the Mechanics of Demolition by Rapid Collapse" In Structures Under Shock and Impact IV. (1996)


Dr G, how did you get the papers? Anyone know where I can get them?
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Re: Did WTC 7 fall "too fast"?

Postby Major_Tom on Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:17 am

"The effect of rubble accumulation on the mechanics of demolition by rapid collapse"
http://library.witpress.com/pages/PaperInfo.asp?PaperID=9464

Sounds like a paper we should read but I'm not paying the $30.00.

"Factors affecting the numerical modelling of demolition by explosives"
http://library.witpress.com/pages/PaperInfo.asp?PaperID=11931

Probably another paper we should read before 1-D modelling the towers.

I bet this guy has already worked out some of the problems we encounter.

He probably knows what acceleration range "falling too fast" would be and why.

Can anyone get these?


Here is an interesting paper: CHARACTERIZING THE RUBBLE PILE FOLLOWING BUILDING COLLAPSE
http://www.21csi.com/publishpapers/Schonberg_ACS_Paper.pdf


YARIMER, E and LAPA, J.A.M. - "A Numerical Model for Demolition of Buildings by Explosivess", in Structures under Shock and Impact, SUSI-1996, Italy (submitted).

YARIMER, E and LAPA, J.A.M. - "Factors affecting the Numerical Modelling of Demolition by Explosives", in Structures under Shock and Impact, SUSI-1994, Madrid.

LAPA, J.A.M. and BROWN, C. "Demolition of Structures by the Use of Explosives", Curso da Ordem dos Engenheiros, Coimbra, 1995

Interesting web page
http://www.dec.uc.pt/labest/l1t2in.html


Lapa, M. Yarim, E. (1995); Experimental study of the dependence of collapse velocities on material parameters, with application to demolitions; Final Report Grant Ref. GR/J/14929, Univ. (1995); Experimental study of the dependence of velocities collapse on material parameters, with application to demolitions, Final Report Grant Ref GR/J/14929, Univ. College, London, UK College, London, UK


About Mr Lapa http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www2.civil.ua.pt/Recursos%2520Humanos/JALapa/JALapa.asp&ei=EynISt34FoqENIOisfMH&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=8&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DE.%2BYarimer%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D40

I'd love to hear what he has to say about the WTC7 roof descent.
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Re: Did WTC 7 fall "too fast"?

Postby Major_Tom on Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:49 pm

1) Fall time far exceeds even known CDs
2) Gravitational acceleration during a portion of the collapse


Yup.

If I were having a few beers with Mr Lapa and wanted his opinion on WTC7, my 2 central questions would be:

1) What do you think of the the fast fall time in general?

2) What do you think was happening to the building near the beginning of the collapse when it went into a period of +9.0m/s^2 acceleration?



I'd basically want to see if he has witnessed similar numbers in his studies of CDs.

Are these numbers within his range of expectation? Has he seen demos go through periods of high acceleration like that?


To me his answers would mean more than all the analytical models and solutions the Bazants of the world have offered thus far.
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Re: Did WTC 7 fall "too fast"?

Postby OneWhiteEye on Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:11 pm

Excellent finds, Major_Tom! I guess the subject is more studied than I thought. I do wonder what light Lapa could shine on this.
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Re: Did WTC 7 fall "too fast"?

Postby achimspok on Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:59 pm

I guess that the beginning of this threat bears an error. Dr. G gave time and distance for the first 5 seconds of the Sandwell East Tower demolition. He wrote that the tower didn't accelerate faster than 5m/s².
The given times and distances appear like the onset of the collapse at 1.4 seconds, acceleration about 8m/s² for the next 1.5 seconds and nearly a constant velocity after that.

Image

For a short time the acceleration could be higher than that e.g. if the downward movement indeed started at about 1.5 seconds then the first 0.5 seconds need to accelerate at free fall.

Image

I haven't seen a video of the Sandwell demolition but probably they took just one floor or less out. The upper part would hit the lower part and immediately start to decelerate.

The astonishing WTC7 collapse had a relatively long period at or near free fall. Like peterene pointed out somewhere these pattern fits perfectly the loss of the lobby height before the upper part hypothetically hit the ground and decelerated.

The major difference between a seismic collapse and the WTC7 collapse can be described this way:
A) In a seismic collapse the sway of the building is caused by the ground shaking. The building sways back and forth on all columns at ground level. The displacement of the upper block is parallel to its corners. At a certain amplitude of the sway the columns will start to kink or bend and the upper block starts to "sink" sideways until these ground level columns break. -> Collapse.

b) For any unknown reason WTC7 started to sway some seconds prior to the east penthouse collapse. First it sways to the west and away from column 79. Imo the columns 79 - 81 can be excluded for a cause. Shortly after that the east penthouse collapsed and fell near free fall acceleration through the "core" of WTC7 - means about no resistance inside the building! Still the building sways back and forth but now at a higher amplitude. Finally the onset of the global collapse did not occur in the moment of the highest amplitude but about in the moment of the buildings upright "zero position". The whole building - while swaying "sinus-like" back to the west - immediately changed its direction towards east where the penthouse was collapsed already.
Btw, all known videos are showing the WTC7 from the north. Column 79 supported the north wall of the east penthouse while columns 80 and 81 supported the south wall of that penthouse. Nevertheless, in no video is any visible sign of the south wall still in place while the north wall just started to fall. Imo columns 81 and 80 were already gone just some seconds before the east penthouse collapsed. There is a visible downwards suction in the smoke above the penthouse shortly before the east penthouse started to collapse. This suction might indicate the collapse of the roof and probably the north side of the penthouse.
The collapse time given by NIST is wrong. According to the seismic data the collapse started about 15 seconds earlier. Comparing the seismic data of LDEO (PAL) with the sway of the building some remarkable events becoming visible: The sway started exactly in the moment of a seismic spike. But there are TWO seismic spikes. The second spike occurred shortly prior to the east penthouse collapse.
All further ground shaking can be explained by the falling debris of the penthouse hitting the ground and - after a short pause - the debris of the global collapse. The magnitudes of both collapses (penthouse, rest) are comparable probably because the penthouse fell from a high elevation seemingly without deceleration. The outer shell fell "just" for some meters and started to decelerate itself. While doing so just the lowest floor collapsed one by one. Therefore the transmitted energy would not exceed the necessary energy to crush just one floor. Most of that energy will be consumed by the crushing of that actual floor. Just a fraction of that energy will be transformed into seismic energy. Therefore the appearance of both seismic events looks pretty similar even if the first was caused by the small penthouse and the second by the rest of the building.
Finally we never heard some good and unedited sound recording of the collapse. But that sound exits somewhere and sure, NIST listened to it because they used the well known West St video for a lot of analysis e.g. the motion detection of the sway. According to the sway-analysis NIST has a longer version of that video then the public ever had seen. They included this shot in their own WTC7-promotion-video but without sound. Nevertheless there is a version of that shot aired on Sep. 12 with a completely different sound than e.g. in the Naudet video. The "most likely" original sounds recorded in a distance of 0.4 miles has two loud "Bangs" at very low frequencies. (It sounds pretty much like described by a witness even if NIST claims that there was no "Bang" at all and of course no witness to those sounds.) That sound recording started after the first seismic spike and prior to the second seismic spike (after subtracting the time that sound had to travel trough air).
According to Won-Young from LDEO (PAL) the 1993 bombing of the WTC caused no measurable seismic activity. I can only guess about the reasons for it. Maybe because of a very short pressure pulse that wasn't directed against the foundation but against the inner structure. However, the seismic spikes prior to the WTC7 collapse probably must be interpreted as falling debris rather than as "explosion". If so then the timing of the thunder sound matches an hypothetical explosion that caused a lot of falling debris which is accountable for the seismic activity.
According to the building sway and seismic spikes there was another similar event but still without any known authentic sound recording.
Imo the first event took out column 80 and probably some symmetrical support of the west side -> the building started to sway west. Some seconds later column 79 was taken out and caused the penthouse collapse. Probably further support of the west side was gone simultaneously (the building still sway in a sinus-pattern around the upright "zero-position". Simultaneously with the penthouse hitting the ground either the debris smashed further support* or further support was taken out and caused the global collapse.

*the NIST theory of the "penthouse smashing transfer trusses" lacks of one explanation. In front of the penthouse all lower floors must hit these trusses. If these lower debris wasn't able to destroy these trusses then we should expect some kind of debris pillow for the penthouse. There is no usable explanation why the global collapse should wait for the penthouse hitting the ground.

Anyone any idea?

Imho WTC7 is not comparable to a seismic collapse and it didn't fall too fast. But it fell too fast for being initiated by a buckling core column 79 and some tiny toon chain reaction that totally negated all support from below in a perfect manner.

Most disturbing is the fact that the NIST Interim Report on WTC7 concluded that an unsupported column length of 4 floors wouldn't cause the column to buckle at a steel temperature 250°C. In some oxygen guided simulation (including additional fire sources on the north side etc.) NIST reached some simulation of a burning inferno for hours on several floors one above the other and surprisingly in the area around column 79 (core area without that much fuel) and finally an unsupported column length of 5 floors. I try to imagine how surprised the NIST engineers looked at the screen to see that happen. But while that unsupported column 79 buckled at less than 250°C we still have the problem of extremely hot "hot spots" in the rubble and close the column 81.

Falling Penthouse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjQyXLRpULU

Sway:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5rAK2CeP0Y

Sound, witness accounts and seismic spikes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sI2gP7_xdA
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Re: Did WTC 7 fall "too fast"?

Postby femr2 on Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:51 am

A small point perhaps, but my impression of the movement described as *sway* seems to me to be more like a *twist*, quite similar to the slight twist in the lower portion of each Tower immediately following initiation. Whether that could be explained by (trying to find the right phrase) de-tensioning? of the structure, or another process I'm not sure without further input...

To clarify, I'll add a sped-up inline animation and video links to this post as soon as I can.

(If I'm too far OT, delete :) and I'll consider a new thread.)
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Re: Did WTC 7 fall "too fast"?

Postby Major_Tom on Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:12 am

Does anyone have info on anticipated or measured fall accelerations through the first few second of some demolitions?

Is near freefall more common than we think (for known demos)?

Is it typical to see an acceleration spike like this at the beginning of known demos?

Roofline collapse curves of known demos for the first "stages" of collapse?

Like peterene pointed out somewhere these pattern fits perfectly the loss of the lobby height before the upper part hypothetically hit the ground and decelerated.


Lobby to ground or 13th to 5 floor? How does 13th floor jet flames relate?



I'm considering sending Mr Yarimer and Lapa a box of chocolates with an invitation to this forum.


Many ideas by Achimspok. I need a little time to digest it all.
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Re: Did WTC 7 fall "too fast"?

Postby peterene1 on Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:46 am

Lobby to ground or 13th to 5 floor? How does 13th floor jet flames relate?


The freefall period (32m) exactly fits the gap between the 5th and 13th story.

It seems that the jet flame was a representation of a large scale weakening at that floor. NIST also choses the 13th floor slab as a start of the collapse (NIST mixes lies with truth, i.e. they knew that the collapse should have/started at the 13th floor.

Now, the 13th floor jet flame came with an additional sources of smoke, from the lowest floors. (read thermite) This fits the theory, that the 5th floor (mechanical floor with no pesky office workers) was used as a second floor to "wire" the building.

Why? Because the 5th floor had metal louvers, this fact allowed the smoke to escape (and possibly saved the windows from the other buildings, the metal louvers would contain the blasts inside the building).

Is it clear now why Barry Jennings had to die? Hint:
We've got to the 6th floor, big explosion...blew us back to the 8th floor.


Of course, some charges could have been there and there, maybe there were some local collapses between the ground level and the 5th floor. But the main locations are blindlingly obvious - 5th and 13th floor, there can be no doubt about that, ever. :)

I'm considering sending Mr Yarimer and Lapa a box of chocolates with an invitation to this forum.


Sounds like a right thing to do.

Imo the first event took out column 80 and probably some symmetrical support of the west side -> the building started to sway west


IMHO on or more of columns no. 61,62 or 63 had been gone by this time (the jet flame). The symetrical disapperance of the support (in regard to the penthouse) is witnessed by the appearance of the windows during the collapse (speculation....).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ6-kJb9CAE
Fight the dark forces of moron!
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Re: Did WTC 7 fall "too fast"?

Postby femr2 on Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:44 pm

Major_Tom wrote:Does anyone have info on anticipated or measured fall accelerations through the first few second of some demolitions?

Did a couple of smearograms for that failed one...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsaKWWoGkAc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLVtC7081ws
for...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD126r9ihaw

We can easily generate some trace data for others though.
Separate thread ?
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Re: Did WTC 7 fall "too fast"?

Postby Major_Tom on Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:45 pm

I don't have the talent. We need to know whether there is a near freefall collapse phase near the beginning of known demos. Is it characteristic of the initial stages of demos?

Is such a period a known signature of demos?

Maybe that box of chocolates is a better idea? (These guys must know something we don't.)
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Re: Did WTC 7 fall "too fast"?

Postby achimspok on Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:48 pm

Is such a period a known signature of demos?


That's a good idea. We need to proof it. Without knowing I guess it is - free fall or at least near free fall for about 1 floor height - that's what I expect. Imo any chaotic or accidental or seismic collapse due to weakening or buckling or whatever should show a slow and chaotic onset.
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Re: Did WTC 7 fall "too fast"?

Postby peterene1 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:09 pm

Demos of large buildings aren't usually done by removing a single story (my impression after watching a few documents about demos, don't count on that much), they are rather done by removing a few story block (actually more of them).

The perpetrators didn't have much time, so they did that (for example) between floors 5 and 13, the columns were gone there, no rigid columns acting as a support for the lateral bracing, a little force and the bracing is gone, no resistance, the middle block is not there anymore.

The middle block is thus far less rigid than the upper and lover block. Then the upper block makes contact with the lover block, rigid columns hold the bracing still and some resistance is met.

So, should we measure four periods in the descent, the first period when the upper block starts to fall, the freefall period, the period when the upper block contacts the lover block and than even more pronounced deceleration (upper block hits the ground) or not?

Should there be a difference between the rigid bracing acting or rigid bracing and rigid bracing impacting the ground?

Or am I completely wrong?

Mr Yarimer and Lapa should decide!
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Re: Did WTC 7 fall "too fast"?

Postby SnowCrash on Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:00 am

Achimspok:
The astonishing WTC7 collapse had a relatively long period at or near free fall. Like peterene pointed out somewhere these pattern fits perfectly the loss of the lobby height before the upper part hypothetically hit the ground and decelerated.


So...what is the lobby height? Is it eight storeys? If so...don't we then have the answer to the question of why WTC 7's structure was behaving like air for ~2.25 seconds? Or would the perimeter columns provide enough resistance for there to be a decline in acceleration or deceleration?

If this is true...then the whole freefall = CD argument has been falsified, let's say by the opportunity the lobby provides for this freefall to occur.

Just my layman's POV. I have been thinking about that lobby for months now. Turns out peterene has been thinking about it too. Why hasn't this been discussed more?
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Re: Did WTC 7 fall "too fast"?

Postby femr2 on Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:37 pm

SnowCrash wrote:don't we then have the answer to the question of why WTC 7's structure was behaving like air for ~2.25 seconds?

Not at all.I assume you have read through as much of the WTC 7 threads here as you can, and a working knowledge of the NIST WTC7 reports is a good idea in order to understand the depth of the problem.

Or would the perimeter columns provide enough resistance for there to be a decline in acceleration or deceleration?

They most certainly should. They should also not all fail almost simultaneously over such a significant height. And we cannot ignore the core of the building.
A very simple observation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYV9iNdr16I

If this is true...then the whole freefall = CD argument has been falsified, let's say by the opportunity the lobby provides for this freefall to occur.

Again, I suggest becoming more familiar with the mechanics involved before suggesting simplistic black/white arguments. Do you think NIST would have spent numerous years revising and revising their final report if the *answer* was so simple ?

Just my layman's POV. I have been thinking about that lobby for months now. Turns out peterene has been thinking about it too. Why hasn't this been discussed more?

WTC7 has been discussed in depth for many years.

I suggest looking at the WTC7 floor plans for the first 10 floors at least, then performing some analysis of the mechanics and energy requirements for failure of the structures, then relating everything you have learned to the *official* NIST collapse initiation and propogation hypotheses.
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