The 9/11 Forum

Major_Tom wrote:Wow. I think he is baiting you to deviate from the subject of chips.

I hope you remain calm.

No, I don't think anybody was baiting anybody else. I do think people got a little too emotional, in large part because of conflicts from a while back, that have nothing to do with the chips.

The latest emails are calmer, let's call it. I hope to post some of them, from the participants that have given me permission to do so, later on tonight or tomorrow morning.

I've encouraged the Harrit team to give a few of the chips to Dr. Greening, who should be able to get access via contacts in Canada, to lab facilities. Also, there are many universities in the US that should be able to help out. I don't recall any of the emails discussing plans for collaboration or outourcing, with the exception of Professor Jones responding favorable to an suggestion to use a hitherto unknown technique (to me and him) for testing virtually non-destructively, that is supposed to be able to identify large numbers of paints. I'm sure they've talked about collaborations, but not that I'm privy to.

I had suggested to Henry, a physicist in France who has some of the chips, that he whack one with a hammer to see if it ignites. Turns out that that was probably a good suggestion.

According to this page a 2 lb hammer swung at 20 feet per second, which drives a nail 1/2 inch into hard wood, would exert 521 lbs of pressure.

A typical nail head is much smaller than 1/10 of a square inch. So, maximum pressure of a hammer blow on a nail head will exceed 5,210 lb/in^2, or 35.9 MPa

Consequently, I predict that if you start a nail into hard wood, then glue one of the chips onto the head of a nail, then finally whack it once again, hard, if it's nano-thermite, it will ignite. (Recall that the yields of Al Oxide are in the MPa range. I don't remember exactly how many MPa, and am too lazy/tired to look it up. However, if it's not quite enough to ignite the chip, then I fully expect a sledge hammer to do the job.).

Of course, you should use a glue that doesn't have kaolinite. If it doesn't ignite, you can send the remains to Sunstealer. We wouldn't want him to be fooled by glue-kaolinite.

ETA: Actually, glueing it may completely exclude gaseous oxygen, which may prevent a thermite reaction from becoming self-sustaining. So, instead of glueing it, he should cut a thin piece of scotch tape to hold it in place, which will still let some air in from the sides.

If it DOES ignite, the entertainment value of having debunkers explain to us how everyday paint primer will ALSO ignite if hit by a hammer will more than compensate for the loss of a chip.

ETA #2: The chips are about a square millimeter, which comes out to only about .001 square inch, not .1 square inch. By eyeballing my ruler, 1 square millimeter looks too small for a reasonably sturdy nail. However, 10 square millimeters looks fine, and that is still 10x smaller than .1 square inch. So, I think a nail hammer will do fine.

Professor Jones emailed me this response to my "hit it with a hammer" suggestion:

Just one question -- How will you know that the red chip ignited?

(We did a LOT to establish that!)

Steve

Also, I subsequently suggest a drop hammer with a nail attached, pointy side down, instead of a regular nail hammer. This would allow for a good video angle. Now that I've eyeballed my ruler, this doesn't seem like as good a suggestion, since the chips are so small that even compared to the sharp edge of a nail, they are small. I suppose that they could firmly glue them in place, gray side down, on a flat head nail. Also, I vaguely recall some pin head nails, or such, that have a slight depression in their heads. These may fit one of the chips rather well, and help to hold it in place.

Well, I don't have any credit, so it may be inappropriate to write any critic, but...

Some of the forum members argue against the view proposed by the active thermitic paper,

they argue that the measurements and observations from the paper aren't conclusive, because....
and then they start to attack the idea of thermite and thermite assisted collapse, but I have to ask you: can you offer a single example of material, which would react like the chips, in all of the experiments/measurements?

So far it seems that nobody from this forum can offer a reasonable explanation on the origin of the aluminium platelets and iron oxide nanoparticles, let alone any theory on how they were mixed on the silicon substrate in relatively proper ratio.....(....)

Yes, we shouldn't jump into conclusions, but the weight of the evidence clearly ...(...), as you know - you can't say that test doesn't meet your expectations so the whole thing must be something different, when the other tests tell a different story ( the evidence is cumulative, because every measurement will deviate from expectations....if you treat the evidence as non-cumulative, you will not be able to positively detect anything..)

This is not science, this is forensic science and investigation.WE can't be sure on 100%, yet we have to arrive at a conclusion, and don't pretend that you are undecided, everybody is, at least subconsciously decided.....

examples:

Blah, blah.....if it's not primer paint, than it must be from the electronics..!

If we assume that there were 100 000 electronic gadgets in WTC complex, that could contain the red chips, then it's clear that every item had to contain on average 10+g of these chips, that's horrific number! I can't imagine anything like that sitting in front of me.....

" the grey portion consists only of iron oxide, so that's a prove that the chips were blah.blah"

So, you can pretend that you are strictly scientific, but that doesn't count here. The inert part of the chip could serve in the manufacturing process, or it could speed up the reaction, many pyrolants and explosives have problems with homogenous structure, which slows down the speed of the reaction in the whole charge.It would not be such a loss to loose a "few" percents of the energetic content to get ten times quicker reaction with better effect on the steel, especially when you are dealing with tons of that material.....

" we have no theory on the use of thermite, so it isn't thermite, but some yet undiscovered substance full of nanoparticles, which does occur in buildings...."

Massive circular logic, of course cutting of the core columns from inside the elevator shafts is a good hypothesis/theory (depends on your belief ).I agree that the truss theory by Jim Hoffman is laughable....i.e. there is only one way the thermite could be used, so the quote above is pretty much nonsensical

Note: This post isn't intended to be an attack against anybody on this forum by any means, sorry if you feel it in any other way.

Metamars:

If you look in Wendlandt’s excellent book Thermal Analysis you will see DSC traces of all kinds of very ordinary materials that give “sharp” exotherms or endotherms. Indeed, I have done some DSC studies of my own on the dehydration of copper sulfate pentahydrate and obtained traces with very sharp peaks, but so what!

As I have posted before, while the DSC studies of Harrit et al. are interesting, their results cannot be used to extract kinetic information about the decomposition of the red/gray chips. Instead you must carry out DSC measurements at different heating rates and/or carry out so-called isothemal DSC to be able to say anything about the rate of decomposition of the red/gray chips.

Peterene 1:

I admit I cannot pinpoint a specific example of a red/gray magnetic bi-layered material used in an electronic device known to have been in the Twin Towers, ….. but similar bi-layered materials are in fact very common in consumer electronics. The Japanese company NEC manufactures an electromagnetic shielding sheet for use in PCs and cell phones that employs Sendust powder (Fe-Al-Si - based oxides) coated onto a polymeric backing layer. I have also seen patents for Fe-Al-Si alloy powders for high frequency electronic devices that use flake-like Fe-Al-Si alloy powders that are re-crystallized to have “super-fine” grain sizes. Try googling on words like “Flex Suppressor”, “soft magnetic powders”, “electromagnetic noise”, etc.

A final point:

I consider the fact that Harrit’s red/gray chips “explode” when heated to a mere 430 deg C as a big problem for the suggestion that red/gray nanothemite was coated onto steel surfaces in the Twin Towers prior to 9/11. If this was the case, the structural steel in the fire-affected zones of WTC 1 & 2 would have been subject to erratic deflagrations as the fires locally heated surfaces to temperatures above 430 deg C. This is hardly the best way to go about a “controlled demolition” of these buildings, now is it!

thanks for reply, but you have to show more

1) all right, you have seen some patents, but you have to show where were the tons of that material (i.e. every el. item had to contain 10+g of these chips, which is hard to imagine (at least for me)

2) the exothermic reactions and the iron rich microspherules, yes there are good ways to dismiss that, but you have to show that these materials do ignite under oxy-acetylene torch..and that they behave like the chips from WTC in DCS and other tests

3)You have to show that these particles are emebed into silicon matrix and so on....

So far it seems that the other explanations aren't good enough and that they need further research, at this time the weight of evidence points towards thermite.

MM, thanks for what you are doing.

Major_Tom wrote:MM, thanks for what you are doing.

You're welcome, but it's good to keep in mind that it's the Harrit team and Dr. G. who are doing so much work!

I consider the fact that Harrit’s red/gray chips “explode” when heated to a mere 430 deg C as a big problem for the suggestion that red/gray nanothemite was coated onto steel surfaces in the Twin Towers prior to 9/11. If this was the case, the structural steel in the fire-affected zones of WTC 1 & 2 would have been subject to erratic deflagrations as the fires locally heated surfaces to temperatures above 430 deg C. This is hardly the best way to go about a “controlled demolition” of these buildings, now is it!

Dr. Greening, all good and well, but isn't that what happened in the corner of (and allegedly elsewhere in) the South Tower?

(Please note that I realize that the flowing substance seen could hardly have come from a narrow DSC peak)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcEr7ZhvE3A

It's blowing in the wind, it's dust, just a coincidence?

Dr. G. recently wrote,

4. The main reason I have for doubting the alleged significance of the red/gray chips is that a thin layer of such an 밻nergetic material� would not be capable of heating massive steel columns sufficiently to cause any thermal stress to the building.

I don't know what typical thickness of fireproofing was in the WTC buildings, but this link gives about 2 inches, generally.

So, if a 100-micron layer gives a 16 C increase in temperature, then to get a 600 C increase in temperature requires 37X as much. This works out to 3.7 mm. IOW, less than 10% the thickness of the fireproofing - which makes it very easy to hide. My pinkie is all of 15 mm wide - so a fatal dose of nanothermite might be only 1/4 the width of my pinkie.

Will the fireproofing melt off, or burn off? I have no idea. But your stated main reason for doubting the alleged significance of the red/gray chips makes no sense to me, unless you can demonstrate that the chips can't be layered off-site 37 layers deep, or that the fireproofing will not not insulate the heat generated from combusted nanothermite.

Metamars:

What you are saying is ridiculous!

The red/gray chips are BI-LAYERED and are no more that 100 microns thick. You cannot weasle out of this with 37 layers of 100 micron nanothermite! Ask Jones to show us all a sample of this extra-thick material please!

Or please tell me how you can paint a surface to form a coating with 37 bi-layers or why there were no red/gray/red/gray/red/gray.... chips found.

You and Jones need to go back to the drawing board and try harder!

I have a much better proposal. Spike the WTC thermal insulation with 10 - 20 % AP. This gives you enough heat to do the job.

how would there be any of a 37 layer thick chip leftover after the extreme violence of the destruction? especially when the material itself is the instigator?
obviously, if this alleged layered nanothermite was blowing everything including concrete and humans into 60 micron particles, the explosive itself cannot be expected to remain intact. that's like asking to see the shell casing of little boy and fat man (the first atomic bombs used in japan, for the lurking reader's info), and saying that because you can't find them, no atomic bombs were used.
i think it's you that needs to take another look at the logic, frank.
although, i still like your rocket fuel. keep it up. who knows besides the perps at this point?

Dr. G wrote:Metamars:

What you are saying is ridiculous!

The red/gray chips are BI-LAYERED and are no more that 100 microns thick. You cannot weasle out of this with 37 layers of 100 micron nanothermite!

As you know, not all the chips were merely bi-layered (if, by that, you mean no more than 2 layers). Furthermore, I have already informed this forum of a company that manufactures nanofoils, that can be engineered to have thousands of layers.

What is NanoFoil®

RNT’s patented NanoFoil® is a new class of nano-engineered material. It is fabricated at our Hunt Valley facility, by vapor-depositing thousands of alternating nanoscale layers of Aluminum (Al) and Nickel (Ni). When activated by a small pulse of local energy from electrical, optical or thermal sources, the foil reacts to precisely deliver localized heat up to temperatures of 1500°C in fractions (thousandths) of a second.

Today, this localized heat is used in many bonding applications ranging from the bonding of sputter targets to backing plates, to the attaching of a component such as an LED to a circuit board.

Ask Jones to show us all a sample of this extra-thick material please!

I'm sure if he had samples that were "extra-thick", to the point of 36 layers, he would have mentioned them. OTOH, he shows one in his paper that is at least 5 layers thick, with "an unusual light-gray layer" in the middle. So, you're argument as to why there couldn't have been nanothermite in 36 layers, when we can have nanofoils (with layers as thin as 30 nm, if not thinner) consisting of thousands of layers nowadays, is what? Nothing stronger than that he doesn't have any samples? The severity of the collapse is posited as the explanation for all sorts of extreme pulverization, including missing DNA (which is only about 2.6 nm wide). Will you now insist that nanothermites must be an exception?

Back in the day, when I was a Boy Scout, we would sometimes cook in aluminum foil, by wrapping the food (say, a steak) on both sides, then crimping and rolling the edges. I will suggest that creating built-up nanothermite sheets could similarly be constructed - i.e., by crimping the edges. (I readily admit to having to toss this crimping idea out if it turn out that the chips were insufficiently pliable.). Of course, there's other means that could work. For e.g., I have yellow sticky pads that are held together by glue. Copying paper is about 70 microns, so I figure that sticky pad paper is about the same.

Can you give a convincing explanation as to why sheets of, say, 10 micron thick nanolayers couldn't be held together by glue at the edges?

Or please tell me how you can paint a surface to form a coating with 37 bi-layers or why there were no red/gray/red/gray/red/gray.... chips found.

It's be dumb to paint 37 layers, by hand, on site. Similarly, when rnt delivers a nanofoil consisting of thousands of layers, it'd be dumb to show up on site to add together sheets that are 6 layers deep. Why would they do that, and not just create the thousand-layers sheets in their factory?

This isn't a fair comparison, because their layers seem stuck together, always. But the point remains - if it was optimal to only manufactur multi-layers 6 layers thick, they're not going to wait to get onsite to join the multi-layers, any more than your local stationary story assembles yellow sticky pads from constituent assemblies.

You and Jones need to go back to the drawing board and try harder!

I have a much better proposal. Spike the WTC thermal insulation with 10 - 20 % AP. This gives you enough heat to do the job.

Well, dust off your resume, and the next time the NWO needs a chemist, you'll be on the A-list.

Metamars:

Once again I have a much better theory!

"They" put nanothermite chips in with the Doritos in little polyethylene bags laced with a cocktail of that new nitro-triazol explosive NTO, with a little bit of CL-20 thrown in with the optional "hot sauce".

These bags were smuggled into the Twin Towers in the WTC coffee wagons, hidden in the "munchies" draw.

Mossad agents asked the Coffee Wagon lady for a nudge, nudge, wink, wink, ..... "BAG OF CHIPS. You know, THE HOT ONES" during their "lunch breaks" and stuffed them into strategic locations throughout the Towers...

Makes more sense than your "theory".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKrUZERj1cQ&NR=1

watch from 7:42

get smart episode 52

In 1966, Stanislav Brebera, a chemist with Explosia’s parent company Synthesia, found his own combination of explosive and binding agents. It was given the name “Semtex” – a reduction of “Semtín” and “Explosia.” Brebera’s creation was a crystalline high explosive as stable and powerful as C-4, but even more versatile for extreme temperatures. Like its American cousin, Semtex was malleable and putty-like, and could be transported, handled and custom-fit for just about any job. It was dubbed “the magic marble of Pardubice.”

Jaroslav Pulicar says point-blank it’s not in Explosia’s interests to offer a product that crumbles to dust after three years.

When asked how many years he thought Semtex would remain effective, Pulicar replied, “Sixty, 70, 80...150, maybe 200 years, maybe more. No one knows.”

dr. greening, methinks thou dost protesteth too much.

good work, metamars!