The 9/11 Forum

I have had a niggling interest in 911 for years, however ive never really had a strong suspicion of demolition like others.

My interest lay in the political side for want of a better description, you guys know your stuff between you all, theres some questions i havent seen answered in any satisfactory way.

The magic passport, will one of you guys direct me to previous postings, or better still,discuss it with me, see to me it strongly hints to collusion by c.i.a. or fbi.

Then theres the convictions for insider trading prior to 911, on the knowledge of 911.

It has always reeked of lihop to me, the passport however is just ludicrous staging to me, only a tiny event of a major event, but it stinks of evidence tampering and hardens my belief of foreknowledge.


Is it really possible for only the passport to survive atomization, i mean he and his clothes were atomised, yet the passport in his pocket was not, and if i understand correctly, went through the entire building and out the other side.

This passport business maybe old hat to you guys, its not to me, its an enigma.

I have a few more Qs aswell, but they will keep awhile yet.


ta.

I don't have any hard answers for you... but I would ask you to consider the possibilities that.. other items did survive but were unable to be identified...
the passport was placed after the fact because the officials wanted the story to stick and they needed to show evidence of it... there was so little.. such as flight manifests... airport films and so forth... it all sounded like (and still does) a story made from whole cloth... so any hard evidence would bolster that story.

Why that 19 hijacker story?

If the MIC was looking to either cover its incompetence OR itching for a bunch of wars in the ME they needed to pin 9/11 on some players in the ME. Remember they tried to pin it on Iraq. The entire corporate/energy sector saw opportunity in 9/11 and it didn't matter who actually did it if they could get at the energy reserves in the ME... they would go along and even concoct the *rationale* for a ME invasion. Those in the national security state understood that FEAR in the people would equate to more control by the national security state... more police, more weapons, more MISSION... more money them and more power and control over the people who would accept all this in exchange for security... The people were forced to give up liberty for security because of FEAR... and that was of course the idea of terrorism... random crimes against civilians. So with that meme firmly implanted in the consciousness of a cowed public... the national security state, the energy corps, and the media were laughing all the way to the bank. Patriotic citizens ran to recruit and give their lives for the security of the homeland and all more and more of the tax revenues were diverted to the GWOT.

None of this made sense if it was a rag tag plot of some guys in who came from a some caves in AfPak... so the media began it creation of the story to foist on a cowed and now gullible public and the congress who do nothing but shill for special interests to enrich themselves.

Wall Street always makes out from war... and so they too were pleased as punch with the GWOT.

So was this a clever plot of a small cabal that understood how all the existing institutions would act in self interest and move this toward to outcome we saw - GWOT and wars and so forth?

Or was this some massive precisely orchestrated plot with thousands of players, actors, mechanics throughout industry, media, finance and government?

Or was this a clever plot of a bunch of hijackers who simply wanted to hit some hi profile US targets and caught the giant sleeping and off guard and got much more than they expected?

All conspiracies involve fore knowledge and those who have it can take advantage of this... such as insider trading... or not being in the place when and where the shooting starts. But not being there is not evidence of anything... is it?

It certainly seems that our intel/national security state is all over the place with agents and double and triple agents and must be aware of all sorts of groups who have a bone to pick with the establishment. They are using entrapment all the time to nail suspected bad guys. Entrapment means that the bad guys are engaged in planning or carrying out crimes... and so we likely assist in the planning and carrying out... and then plan to catch them red handed.. And scream LOOK we caught the SOBs red handed about to do massive or in the act of doing some nasty mischief. That's actually what parts of the national security/intel is engaged in.

Could 9/11 have been such a botched up sting operation which managed to go live and out of control? Or could it have been one where they got an outcome they wanted as noted above?

We can't know with the evidence we have. This is all speculation of the motive. means and opportunity kind... and that's all anyone can do without a forensic case.

The forensic case is made using the actual evidence and data from the events/observations and using engineering and science to make sense of it... explaining it.

We need to connect the dots... not only point them out.

Thanks for the reply sander.

There is another option, whistle-blower.

I mean it seems so utterly implausable to have survived, that maybe someone was trying to throw a delibrate absurdity into events knowing the media would pounce and highlight it, without fully recognising the absurdity of the claim, on the day itself.

You don't think the absurdity of finding a passport or drivers license would not scream out to most people including those reporting it? While the vast majority of people may be gullible... I think a fair amount are not that gullible. And isn't the default position of a new team or reporter to question reports, and verify... at least examine the merits?

Hi all,

I also was suspicious, about the likely-hood of a passport surviving the impact, but when you think of the very small time it would have been subjected to fire it makes it more logical for it to survive.

Passports are robust (and so they should for how much you pay), there's been other plane crashes I have looked at where passports have survived also.

The problem I face on other forums, is people who actively state they will not look at the work of NIST or anyone else, who shares the same or similar conclusions around the wtc collapses. I have read into it and agree with the conclusion that fire and lack of water (in the case of wtc 7) were the main culprits for the collapses, not controlled demolition as some say, also thermate has been disproved.

A short reply from others would be appreciated.

The airplane hit the exact center of the building, right in front of the core hallway. The fuselage of the airplane contained about 1000kg of air (220m/s!!). This air could have provided enough push to send the passport through that corridor and out of the tower. Tickets, body parts and landing gear made it out of the tower, too.

* the central fuel tank of the plane was empty.....

to Illuminist14 : The NIST conclusions are false. This forum has a lot of evidence that directly contradicts their claims. Thermate hasn't been disproved at all, you can't accept negative proof in science anyway.

Thanks for your reply.

Do you mean their overall conclusion of a fire induced collapse was false? Which parts in particular? I appreciate what you say re negative proof, the problem I have is, the residues found in the wtc dust do not prove thermate was used. It just shows that bi-products of a thermate reaction were present, but these materials found were also expected to be present due to the materials of the wtc.

Also I see no logical way thermate could have been used to be honest.

NIST says that the WTC 1 and 2 towers had collapsed because of sagging floor trusses, that's provably false. Both towers collapsed because of core failure - which implies either a very badly built core or controlled demolition. The WTC7 report overestimates the duration of fires (4×) and provides provably untrue collapse mechanism. WTC7 started to lean 90s before the final descent, NIST does not and currently can not explain this finding, also their simulation can't explain the freefall descent of west penthouse and inward bowing of WTC7's north wall.

Thermate could have been used to either weaken or cut the columns/connections. Those columns were H columns, the cavities of the columns could have been used to conceal those charges. In case of the towers it would have been enough to take out one column every two minutes, 10 missing core columns would send the tower to the ground.. no question. The same goes for WTC7 (with minor changes).

lots of threads to discuss the technicalities of the core columns lads, thanks for the replies.

Personally i find it in-comprehensible as to the passport being driven through the whole building and out the other-side, and surviving with just a few singes, as atta attempted to land on the 91st floor, i may have given the possibility a little credence had the black-boxes done the same, instead of being atomised.

I think the way it was alledgedly found stinks aswell, plane has hit the tower and passport fluttered down to the street, along comes joe the plumber in his best suit, luckily joe isnt interested in all thats going on above him, the falling debris, people jumping outta windows an all, he has got his eyes on the tarmac and all the paper debris.

SanderO wrote:You don't think the absurdity of finding a passport or drivers license would not scream out to most people including those reporting it? While the vast majority of people may be gullible... I think a fair amount are not that gullible. And isn't the default position of a new team or reported to question reports, and verify... at least examine the merits?

i thought i was pretty clear sander, and 24 hour rolling news grasp at any gossip, and report it, further refining the detail as time rolls on, their not bothered one iota whether it makes real sense at the time a new detail breaks.

And no, the passport reports would only stay in most peoples minds for minutes, only a small number would actually ponder on the absurdity, weeks months or years after the event.

The black boxes were in the back of the airplane, by that time the interior of the tower was so damaged that those things hit the core. On the other hand the passport was in the first two meters of airplane that made contact with the tower (core hallway). Plane tickets made it out of the towers, too... I even saw them on photographs. It is relatively easy to spot a passport laying on the ground.

The only mysterious part is - how the hell did the passport get out of his pocket?

The goverment didn't require this sort of evidence, it would be idiotic to plant it.

It seems to me that the media usually trots out experts of one sort or another... when some tragedy occurs and is in the news. In fact the networks have lists of their go to guys for all sorts of technical things when this happens. Are these people shills who just hide behind their credentials and read what amounts to a script? Hard to know. Could be. One knows that all the so called military experts they trot out are from the MIC and think like the MIC and so don't expect any sort of objectivity from them... they are like hammers and see everything put in front of them as a nail.

It was odd that no experts from the NTSB or similar agencies were in the media after the events... at least to explain what sort of investigation these organizations would normally conduct.

It seemed to me that the thing which dominated the direction of the coverage and the zeitgeist was the very early appearance of GWB on the pile declaring war and stating that we were attacked in an act of war. Before that it seemed that there was so much shock, ignorance of what happened, fog, shock, and mostly fear because of the surprise and the magnitude of the devastation, loss of life and so on... no one seemed to know what to do or how to react. Where were the cool heads at the time? All I recall was the closing of the air space and protecting it... and people being glued to the TV to see if there were survivors.

With GWB's war comments the sentiment of the nation seemed to turn toward revenge and patriotism. No effort was even made to figure out what happened... the story put out made enough sense to justify the *we were attacked*.... because of our way of life, our freedom etc. and most Americans were not going to let that happen and so like sheep they fell right in line.

It should be understood that as absurd as the OCT has turned out to be with scrutiny... the evidence revealed, the lack of evidence to support it, or the bizarre circumstances and holes in the official story... it was simple enough for anyone to grasp and *seemed* to make sense... and so there was little reason to question it or demand details or concern for them.

The administration fought the demands for an investigation which would / could reveal what actually happened and was well on the way to acting/forming policy initiatives which were built on the OCT - 19 hijackers etc. Now the problem became that of a huge momentum of the state apparatus which had been set in motion based on the 19 hijacker story. It seems impossible that the MIC would even halt or walk back or wait for the verification of an investigation. They were already turning lemons in lemonade. And this new support for hegemony was unchallenged... To question any aspect of 911 or the ensuing policies was to be unpatriotic and unAmerican. The pressure was enormous and it had a chilling effect on those who would ask for an investigation. The only ones who could without being silenced or intimidated were the Jersey girls and other victims of the event. A disinterested reporter or academic, or citizen who would ask for such an investigation were ignored... and even would lose their jobs and so forth. The madness for the GWOT was almost total and for those who opposed it dissent seemed almost impossible. We had a new underclass to hate and discriminate against - Muslems and Arabs.

All the investigations into the event seemed to be after thoughts as the new policies were in effect... policies which grew from and were put in place based in the original 19 hijacker story. The implications of over turning it were so far reaching, especially if there was any sort of MIC complicity that the idea was untenable... and simply dismissed. No one could accept even the idea that this could be *self inflicted* as a pretext for anything... MIHOP was unthinkable and LIHOP impossible to accept. We've spent trillions on defense... where was it?

It was only the internet which allowed for the questioning to surface. And this was ad hoc and done by citizens who were hardly *world class* accident investigators. Virtually all the presentations attacked the flawed logic and flimsy evidence and began looking at 911 not as an act of war but a crime. The problem of course that once declared an act of war... there was no reason to consider these crime scenes, collect and preserve evidence and investigate what actually happened. Was this part of the conspiracy or part of a cover up... or simply an artifact of decision to produce some explanation for the public?...No the the fire protection requirement to investigate was not unlawful... it was an act of war... totally different legal and regulatory environment prevailed. 911 was shoved down the memory hole we were told to look forward no backward.

The public of course expected that the government with all their intel organizations and huge *defense* budgets were supposed to not only prevent such things, but understand them and explain them. But this of course would expose... incompetence at best... how to explain how all these *intel* operations were asleep at the switch? What had we paid trillions of dollars for if not exactly what we didn't get from them and which resulted in 9/11?

It's obvious to see that of course no one was held accountable for any dereliction of duties on 9/11.. no spy agency, no military personal or over sight committee... no one was / or would suffer any consequences for any failure on any level. America was now confronted with the notion that some people (and organizations) are exempt from accountability. People in power simply got a pass... live and operate by different set of rules. A proper "accounting" of what happened should have seen many in government and the MIC in court and in jail perhaps. But that was not going to happened because we *needed* these institutions and individuals to *protect us* we couldn't wage an accountability war against the SOBs who did to us. This is very much like expecting he cops to route out corruption within their ranks when they are believed to be protecting the locals from street and other crime. Cops notoriously get passes for their wrong doing.

The fact is that the proper dealing with the events of 911 would have been nothing short of a dismantling of the MIC, intel and many of the institutions... including gov oversight... which were put in place to support our freedoms and our constitution. 9/11 regardless of who had caused it or conspired revealed a dysfunctional national security apparatus. And of course looking into it would expose massive corruption, waste and wrong doing going back decades... to events such as the ill conceived Vietnam war. There was no way that the MIC... so well established and consuming MOST of our resources... would allow it to be *put out of business* or face any accountability. It was too powerful and would simply not let that happen.

This still doesn't help solve the 9/11 mystery... but we can understand why it is so hard to do it... because regardless of who the conspirators were.. any fair investigations would STILL end up ripping the status quo apart... destroying the huge MIC and stranglehold that the *corporate elite* have over America and even the world. The truth is too revolutionary. It's just not going to happen. Those in power are simply not going to let go of it. In fact, they tighten their grip on it all the time.

Nice post sander.

I think your right, even death-bed confessions failed to change the official Kennedy assassination story, same thing will happen with 911.

Of course light material can escape but if that passport is embedded into a bag or a pocket then the state of that passport should be of the same order as that of the surrounding material. It certainly was not a situation in which a hijacker was waving with his passport. Is this the intact passport? I remember there was also a passport that was half burned but the relevant part was visible… uhm..
I see the whole situation as a product of probabilities. Even if the chance for an event to happen is high then the product of chances is low, because IMHO there are too much coincidents.

Reportedly, the passport was found by a passerby, who handed it to a NYPD detective. The identity of the finder is unknown; apparently, the detective did not document the circumstances of the find, and may well not have talked to the man much or at all, so there is a lot that we just don't know about it:

• Where exactly was it found? Reports indicate about three blocks away from impact, and in the "vicinity of" Vesey Street. But how near Vesey we don't know. If east of the WTC and south of Vesey, the passport would have been found pretty much downwind from the north face of the north tower
• Was it found alone and in the open or in conjunction with other items, such as a bag or clothes? The reports that we have don't mention any of this, it's possibly unknown even by the FBI
• Where was the passport on the plane immediately before the plane crash? We can speculate that Suqami had it on him, but maybe he had it in the overhead compartment, or under the seat in front of his, or on his seat. If he had it on him. we don't know where he was in the plane. Could have been inside the cockpit, but as he wasn't the pilot, he may as well have been outside the cockpit, guarding the door, or even further in the back, where they had moved the passengers, doing crowd control.
• When and where would it have exited the building? It having passed through the tower appears literally the most straightforward possibility, but there are other possibilities. The Naudet video of the first crash showed that a smoke/dust plume billowed in front of the tower's north face, and a fireball of burning fuel rose. This clearly shows that the dynamics of the impact and subsequent fuel explosion allowed some of the mass of the plane to stop from 220m/s impact speed and even reverse direction. If the fuel could, so could any other plane content. Another possibility is exiting sideways: The Naudet video also shows that a split second after the plane entered the north face, a large plume of dust and debris exited through the east wall. This in turn was followed by another fireball - but the dust plume front apparently rode ahead of the fire front. I find it conceivable that items such as a passport could have sailed the pressured air that way

You need to keep in mind that it is not unusual at all that some seemingly fragile items survive plane crashes, even when most of the plane completey disintegrated and/or burned. You find ID cards and readable paper on many crash sites. Granted, the probability of a hijacker's passport to exit the crash zone and be found are very slim - ex ante. But by no means impossible. Many recognizable items from the two planes were found near the towers, such as life jackets, seats, human remains and personal items. Most of them just didn't receive the kind of attention that this passport does, for obvious reasons of interest.

Let's summarize:

• We know that items like passport sometimes survive severe plane crashes more or less unscathed
• We know that some of the mass of the plane did emenate from the north face
• We know that some material ejected from the east face while the disintegrated plane still had momentum
• It is therefore conceivable that the passport exited through the north or east wall
• We don't know exactly where the passport was found, but a position downwind from the north tower is entirely consistent with what we know
• The passport was found

I conclude: As the plane disintegrated into the building and created holes in the north and east wall, the passport was pushed by some pressure wave out of one of these holes, fluttered in the prevalent wind about three blocks towards east-south-east, and landed a bit south of Vesey Street on top of whatever else was there, where it was found and picked up by an unknown passerby and a bit later handed to a police detective, who later only remembered that is was "three blocks away from the crash site in the vicinity of Vesey".

Ex ante, it may be very improbable for that passport to escape the plane and building, but it is not impossible, and so ex post the finding of the passport, the probability of the scenario I describe increases drastically. It's no longer "improbable", it is now a "probable" explanation. Nothing that we know falsifies it.