The 9/11 Forum

Had a listen to Dr. G.'s radio interview and thought I'd start compiling imagery on the south side of WTC 7...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlesuJwwK1g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a94uWPzl3zg

These two focus on the very linear damage surrounding column 20, which NIST incorrectly assumed was only damaged near the roofline.

Please add any glimpses of the south side you find...

Do you have a link to the interview?


I'm having a hard time understanding damage to the south side.

You won't hear much on perimeter peeling anywhere else but on this forum.

Some of us can understand debris displaced far from the base of WTC1 and 2 as perimeter peeling.



We know that damage cannot extend far outwards from the base without such peeling and it always leaves an obvious thick chain of debris. You can always see the perimeter stretched out to the farthest edge of the peel. There are no discontinuities in such stretched out debris. How could there be?

So I naturally look for the peel leading up to WTC7 from WTC1 just as I look at the WTC2 E face peel or the WTC1 W face peel.

And I don't see any.

Peeling acts as continuous sheets. You cannot "fling" anything but small sections of perimeter which we see stuck into a few buildings.


I don't think that people understand that. Substantial debris cannot jump to building 7 without leaving at least some evidence of a continuous perimeter trail behind it.

Major_Tom wrote:Do you have a link to the interview?

Sure, though it should probably go in the other forum (will find it)
http://noliesradio.org/archives/3717

I imagine Dr. G. was a bit frustrated with the amount of 'non-scientific' dialogue, but definitely worth a listen.

I'm having a hard time understanding damage to the south side.

You won't hear much on perimeter peeling anywhere else but on this forum.

Some of us can understand debris displaced far from the base of WTC1 and 2 as perimeter peeling.

We know that damage cannot extend far outwards from the base without such peeling and it always leaves an obvious thick chain of debris.

There are numerous large(ish) detached sections that were ejected with significant lateral velocity, a couple of which managed to reach the roofline of WTC 7.

I'll post video to show the actual 'chunks'.

You can always see the perimeter stretched out to the farthest edge of the peel. There are no discontinuities in such stretched out debris. How could there be?

Am sure it'll all come out in the wash from the buckling logging process you/we are working on.

Good collection of clips of WTC7 south side

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVahuOpOJYE&feature=related

Interesting photos and conversation the linked forum pages 1 and 2 at LTF

The last post by Chris Sarns has two images I've never seen. Very good. Shown below.

http://s1.zetaboards.com/LooseChangeForums/topic/2002640/1/
Worth reading.





As important as the (lack of) damage itself is the rubble consisting of perimeter columns on the street leading up to the building.

For those who have been following how perimeter columns are carried away from WTC1 and 2 via "peeling", you know that only isolated sections of perimeter can be "thrown" farther out beyond the intact peeling sheets. There are other examples of perimeter sheets throwing perimeter small perimeter sections beyond the "peel". They are seen sticking into surrounding buildings and they don't do much damage.

Therefore it is the perimeter layout seen on the street leading up to WTC7 that tell you whether a sigificant group of columns could have made contact with the building itself. You would see a large string of perimeter columns leading up to the foot of WTC7 if the top of a "peel" actually made contact with the south side of WTC7.

You don't see it. There is no mechanism to deliver sizable portions of WTC1 to WTC7 without it.

In other words, you do not have to see the south face of WTC7 itself to understand how much of WTC1 could have been available to hit it. Just look at the debris on the street. Do you see evidence of a continuous peel? No.

Thought I'd give this thread a bit more attention...

My focus on the south side is to try and explain this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlesuJwwK1g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a94uWPzl3zg

I'm aware of the NIST interpretation, but I'm rather, er, skeptical.

Any takers ?

http://www.youtube.com/achimspok#p/u/41/ldO0c2iMmlk
Here is an older video were Arie and me tried to map the south damage (prior to the NIST mapping).
We also used the Steven Spak video especially for the lower floors. I know no other or better source.

New image:


from NIST FOIA Release 18 COMEL006.pdf screen cap -- 100% size
http://911datasets.org/index.php/International_Center_for_9/11_Studies_NIST_FOIA

Also I got an mpeg-2 of the WABC local broadcast around 1:30 pm, as seen in femr2's video above, just another source:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WJgFc4wIaQ ... includes download link

Matt wrote:Also I got an mpeg-2 of the WABC local broadcast around 1:30 pm, as seen in femr2's video above, just another source:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WJgFc4wIaQ ... includes download link

Forgot I'd done these additional enhancements. In the pot...

Shots taken by Jay Comella. NIST FOIA 09-42, Release #13 on 911datasets.org

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3176/r13wtc7sviewsjaycomella.jpg


http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3176/r13wtc7sviewsjaycomella.jpg


http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3176/r13wtc7sviewsjaycomella.jpg


http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3176/r13wtc7sviewsjaycomella.jpg


Last picture: The area between the center of the south face to southeast corner appears to be almost undamaged. At least at the top 20 floors.

Few aerial shots from NIST Electronic Records Release in 2009:
I've rotated the excepts:

Full-size image:
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/2164/26number13.jpg



Full-size imags:
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/2620/221number19.jpg



Full-size image:
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/1470/221number22.jpg



Full-size image:
http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/5017/222number33.jpg

The first few images... before obscured by smoke and dust shows a black gap which looks like something from WTC 1 fell on it at the roof level and destroyed a vertical swath to the ground. This may only be a destruction of a bay or two of the curtain wall... perhaps the spandrel behind it. Perhaps someone can determine where in the plan this occurred and rule out (or in) if this was at a perimeter column location. If it was, we need to look at the possibility that the falling debris (heavy steel panel) had enough energy to buckle the entire column to the ground at that location.

It seems as if the spandrel beams between columns #19 and #20 on almost all floors are gone.

Screenshot from Femr's "WTC7 South Enhanced" video:






Could it be a result due collapsing inner column #69?


Just a thought.

Tom Franklin. Video screen grab from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_jLMlIDD1U

This gash could cause both column 66 and 69 to rotate and or perhaps buckle as a result of the loss of bracing. The multi story columns depend on the bracing to keep the frame in place, not to mention that loss of bracing reducing load bearing capacity.

We also need to determine how long and how extensive the fires were as the fire proofing was rated for two hours and after that the steel would be weakened by fire... Could an office fired burn for more than two hours if not fought? Would it consume the combustibles and move on? If so this would seem to make the fireproofing mostly redundant. There was also diesel fuel stored in that tower and this would not be a normal office fire if the tank containment broke and the diesel leaked and spread. What do we know about that?