The 9/11 Forum

....and how is part of the debris comminuted into dust?

Is the concrete somehow crushed when one floor section impacts one below?


How does the concrete that is trapped between the floorpan and the carpet now
escape in the form of ejections?

it can not be crushed and ejected at the same time, so what force is acting on it
once it is crushed?

The Verinage demolitions are a different matter, there is nothing to
stop the pulverized concrete from escaping, the dust cloud that is being produced is also
much smaller in proportion to the building, compared to the towers, despite the fact
that WTC 1 and 2 were steel buildings as opposed to the buildings subjected to
Verinage demolitions that are mostly made of concrete i believe.


Or was the concrete (and humans) somehow “grinded“ down in an avalanche of falling
debris? i believe someone on this forum referred to the crush zone as “the grinder“.
Grinding means that one piece of matter is being subjected to the
same force over and over again.

I can not see how one piece of concrete can be crushed several times into ever finer
fragments as it now is in virtual free fall together with everything else

It would have to stay in the “grinder“ long enough for it to become pulverized,
and then what? At what point does the avalanche spit out what it has been chewing on?

Niclas wrote:I can not see how one piece of concrete can be crushed several times into ever finer
fragments as it now is in virtual free fall together with everything else

It would have to stay in the “grinder“ long enough for it to become pulverized,
and then what? At what point does the avalanche spit out what it has been chewing on?

Are you questioning the integrity of thousands of people with physics degrees and who claim to be scientists for not asking obvious questions for NINE YEARS?

How dare you?

ROFL

psik

Specifics are more useful than generalisations. I suggest linking in animated GIFS of the ejecta you are referencing. There's too many arguments based on unclear definition of the actual scope.

My question to you would be this...

What else do you think is causing the dust and debris ejecta ?

Please don't say floor-by-floor explosives all the way down the tower, it's just silly.

The ejecta is not fast enough. Simple as that. Forget audio. Forget installation. Forget all the AE911T gibberish. The pulverised concrete ejecta is not going fast enough.

If you want to simplify your viewpoint, consider one floor impacting the one below...

The nominal progression rate is around 27m/s, so one floor takes about 0.15s to go from static, through a 12ft drop and impact the one below.

During that 0.15s, ~206*206*10=424360 cubic feet of air is displaced.

If we use a rough estimate of the window apertures as being 103*4*8=3296 square feet, then we're looking at a flow rate in the region of...

424360/3296/0.15 = 858 cubic feet of air escaping per second, per square foot.

Any fairly small scale debris is going to be ejected pretty easily with anything even roughly near that kind of flow rate.

BTW - I'm deliberately using rough values, as air is going to be pushed in all sorts of directions, compressed, whatever...

Take that value and halve it if you like.

What else do you think is causing the dust and debris ejecta ?

Once you refer to some specific floor by floor ejections as being caused by planted devices, you are stuck because you are insinuating that all other similar looking ejections are also cause by "bombs".


Are there any group of ejections recorded that you would consider being caused by natural collisions? Which ones?

femr, are you saying that the debris was ejected with air being displaced by descending floors?

There seems to be a problem with cause and effect here, the thing that is causing the displacement
of air can not be ejected by the air that it displaces!

I would say its not even physics, it is simple logic.

Niclas, are you saying the buildings must have been laced with explosives on all floors?

No Major Tom, i do not have an opinion on that at all

Major_Tom wrote:

What else do you think is causing the dust and debris ejecta ?

Once you refer to some specific floor by floor ejections as being caused by planted devices, you are stuck because you are insinuating that all other similar looking ejections are also cause by "bombs".


Are there any group of ejections recorded that you would consider being caused by natural collisions? Which ones?

The *odd* ejecta IMO are the large-scale *dust jets* we're all aware of.



I don't see them as being direct result of explosives though. There has yet to be a suitable explanation of their origin, but I'd suggest a *side effect* of some very intense action within the core, with the ejecta funnelled by the core corridors.

The *crush front* streams seem clearly to be just that.

The ejecta during initiation is a bit odd, as it does not seem that there is enough time for it to *develop* in such a scale, but that could perhaps be explained by internal movement prior to exterior visible movements.

Sitting on the fence a bit, but *dust jets* is about as far as I'd go at the mo.

Niclas wrote:femr, are you saying that the debris was ejected with air being displaced by descending floors?

What debris ? But some of it, yes. Some of it by mechanical action between colliding bodies. Remember that the *crush fronts* are significantly ahead of the trailing visible perimeter *destruction*.

There seems to be a problem with cause and effect here, the thing that is causing the displacement of air can not be ejected by the air that it displaces!

Again, it's a simplification, to get an idea of the potential material flow, not an explanation. Again, what ejecta do you mean, and what do you think is ejecting it ? Once ROOSD is under way, I see very little *clean* air being present. Again, what we see on the outside is likely to lag what is ocurring on the inside.

I would say its not even physics, it is simple logic.

Application of logic is never black and white. You can make false conclusions if your logical system definition oversimplifies or does not match the systems realities. (I made a right bosom of myself when applying an *unreasonable* virtual system definition literally to CoM energy conversions )

So...

What ejecta do you mean, and what do you think is ejecting it ?

Niclas wrote:No Major Tom, i do not have an opinion on that at all

Eh ? No opinion ? Odd.

femr, what ejecta do i mean? lets start with the concrete,
how was the concrete pulverized?
How did it escape from being trapped between the carpeting and the floorpans?
And what is causing it to be ejected in massive dustclouds?

What do i believe caused it? I see a building exploding

Niclas wrote:femr, what ejecta do i mean? lets start with the concrete, how was the concrete pulverized?
How did it escape from being trapped between the carpeting and the floorpans?
And what is causing the massive ejections of pulverized concrete?

I don't think you're catching my drift.
What ejections ? Which ones, specifically...

This... ?

(The stuff being ejected from the Southern half of the West face)

No, please let us start at the source, referring to my previous post,
i do not need to point out a specific visible ejection to ask how
the concrete was ejected.

Let me make it even more simple.

How did the concrete escape from being trapped between the carpeting and the floorpans?

Let us start there

Niclas wrote:No, please let us start at the source, referring to my previous post,
i do not need to point out a specific visible ejection to ask how
the concrete was ejected.

You do if you want my opinion on it.

Let me make it even more simple.

Tone. Hmm.

How did the concrete escape from being trapped between the carpeting and the floorpans?

Carpet ? Carpet utterly mashed up, instantly, given the forces. Concrete between the two also mashed up. All manner of other materials ground up in the mix, like dry wall, furniture, glass, all sorts of stuff. All of it pretty free to flow wherever it can, including out of the windows (smashed by overpressure).

Let us start there

Not sure I like the tone going on here.

Again, would my prior GIF be the sort of ejecta you are talking about ?

You could be talking about all manner of different types of material being ejected. In that GIF am sure there will be *some* concrete in the mix ther, but also glass, dry-wall fibre-board, plaster, carpet, perimeter cladding, insulation, wood, plastics, people , all sorts of stuff.

WRT that GIF I suggest the actual destruction is slightly below the level we see ejecta emerging from. There's time for the trailing avalanch of other material to generate some pressure.


And...what do you think is going to happen to a slab of concrete when it's impacted by such large forces ? Are you suggesting it would just break up, not expand, and that some carpet will contain it ?

femr2 wrote:Specifics are more useful than generalisations. I suggest linking in animated GIFS of the ejecta you are referencing. There's too many arguments based on unclear definition of the actual scope.

My question to you would be this...

What else do you think is causing the dust and debris ejecta ?

Please don't say floor-by-floor explosives all the way down the tower, it's just silly.

What is silly about it? How is this explained by the gravitational collapse of the north tower?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hblla0DYmZQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUKLOlIhang

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atSd7mxgsGY

How much energy was required to crush each level of the north tower? How and where is that ever computed?

psik