The 9/11 Forum

In your diagram of the beam stubs in a different thread, I don't understand how they can hold up flooring at the higher levels with the H-beams.

From what you say there must be a gap between the flooring and the columns that increases as we go up. How is the gap filled?

The gap is not filled. The shaft walls are built on the channels and the gaps are inside the shafts.

If you look at construction photos you can see the channel on the upper floors outside the core columns face.

The beam stubs and longer and the gaps you refer to wider at the top where the columns were on CL of the columns below.

here is a diagram of the beam stubs. They are longer as the column section gets smaller. it begins as 52x22 and at the upper floors it is a 16" WF rolled section (501). The floor pans were the same length and so the channels which supported them were attached with beam stubs to the side of the core columns. You can see some of these in the debris photos as well.

Here is a diagram of estimated loads on a typical OOS floor. Considering that all the beam seats were identical and there were several load conditions, this would explain why some would fail sooner than others any why a pancake collapse was likely impossible.

I pulled out some of my old models of the floor trusses, metal decks, and concrete floors. I get a different weight for the floors, ~800 tons. The surface areas are pretty much correct.


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Tom,

The gap is not filled! Where there are shafts the "gap" is inside the core... that is... the inner boundary of the OOS floor is always at the same distance from the facade and the "enclosure" of the core - shafts etc. is on top of the "belt channel" supported by the beam studs. The vertical shafts were at the outside of the core above the termination of the express shafts.

Enik,

My bad, I made a boo boo and did not take 1/3 times the area for the 4" floor thickness. My structure weights were 3x too large ... I will revise and resubmit. The typical tenant OOS floor weight is about 900 tons for the structure and about 1700 tons with the live loads (assumed). Hope I got the rithmatic right this time

ROOSD is only a first draft at this point.

It is going to get a facelift.

Some new informatation combined with a record of perimeter behavior more detailed than any of us would have drempt one year ago allow a much better presentation than the one I have.

Some new viewpoints....




Anybody considering the ROOSD process to earth probably assumes that the propagation will hit the lowest basement levels while the perimeter shell is still enclosing the ROOSD debris.


So, when striking the earth, the whole perimeter through at least 20 floors and the famous tridents are still tubular and intact.

We may assume that the damage of the west wall spreading out from the footprint happens after this collision takes place. The west and south walls were erect and most probably still interconnected at all 4 corners when the massive collision takes place.


One can imagine how the damage occurs after the ROOSD mass strikes the earth, the massive outward pressurization upon impact.

That means the mound shown in the footprints is the actual ROOSD debris, with some core columns sprinkled above as the core finally collapsed.

The "lunar module" from above, a small surviving core structure within WTC1:



Notice the floor slabs that survived the fall of one of the largest buildings on the planet directly above them


When the ROOSD propagation hit earth, the whole perimeter was most probably (completely) enclosed.

A massive, completely trapped impact results and the final collapse of each wall follows.


When the smoke clears, fragile flooring is still intact in the center of the footprint and some dude actually survived in there.

The ROOSD debris cannot escape the funnel. This is important to realize. The ROOSD propagation takes place within a totally enclosed caging at all moments, even as it strikes earth.

>>>>>>>>>>>

Initiating ROOSD may be as simple as just getting enough heavy crap inside the funnel and getting the hell out of the way.

If you can dump enough mass inside a funnel (it doesn't matter how high or how low you do it), you guarantee it can't stop.

In the most general sense, the demo planners merely "dumped" the top mass totally inside the funnel. Once done, there is no way it can get back outside the funnel.

With the gift of hindsight, we look back on some of the collapse progression ideas for WTC1 and 2 over the last 10 years by various authority figures and share a good laugh.


The true dynamics are none other than the ROOSD process combined with the dynamis of each perimeter, 8 total.

A wall is a wall. Once we know the mechanism by which perimeter walls collapsed it can be applied to each particular wall according to the photographic record of that wall.

The core has little to do with collapse mechanics since it just...kind of...stands there.

Much of the core remains and the part that collapses will just contribute to adding destrictive power, or "stripping power" to the ROODS mass distibution.


Therefore, true WTC1 and 2 propagation dynamics is two distinct processes happening inside a bunch of dust:

1) ROOSD "erosion": (don't think pancakes, think oatmeal)
2) Perimeter sheet dynamics


Each of these processes are simple, and they are independent of each other, not even happening in any locality at the same time. These 2 simple processes alone explain all general observables during each collapse.

In any location it always happens the same way: First ROOSD, then perimeter dynamics.

Perimeter sheeting has no dynamics if it is not stripped first.


Wonderfully simple.

Simplicity...

ROOSD and wall.

ROOSD is ROOSD. Wall is wall.

Wall is independent of ROOSD.



Only ROOSD and wall (and dust).


ROOSD, wall and dust, no more.

Dust hides ROOSD and wall.



First ROOSD, then wall.


ROOSD comes and goes, then wall starts.




Then, maybe the best single word to describe the interaction: Funnel >>>>>


Wall completely funnels ROOSD.

Wall traps ROOSD.


Wall no break, circles ROOSD.

Wall is funnel. ROOSD can't escape.


ROOSD want out, but wall holds strong. ROOSD wants out. Wall says NO!


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Even Beachnut can be taught the principle using these sample sentences.

The only thing still lacking is a mathematical expression for ROOSD propagation.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Mathematical formulations for this type of progression are probably in a 600 page thesis on the subject by some Dr V.


The most fundamental number relation for ROOSD is that...



Floor connection strength...... is much, much less than........ column buckling strength.


This is why ROOSD erosion can strip wall and core. They never compete because ROOSD stripping never threatens the column strength.

This is why....first ROOSD, then wall.


Wall encloses ROOSD.


Wall always encloses ROOSD.

Wall is a funnel.


ROOSD cannot escape.

ROOSD is chaotic destruction, totally enclosed (and controlled). It is a gravity-driven meat grinder.

Rather than a meat grinder, consider an electric blender.

With a blender, you throw a few things in at the top, close the lid, push a button and in a short time it will take a very different form.


"You don't see a desk, you don't see a chair...."

You don't see a filing cabinet....

This is important because it is a unique feature of the rubble: Nothing recognizable as common office furnishings.

The key to ROOSD is that it is totally funnelled. The corners of the funnel do not split until later...

First ROOSD, then wall.

All video evidence of ROOSD type propagation passes a contained perimeter with intact corners.

Because it is a totally enclosed funnel, resistance to the ROOSD propagation is experienced as regrinding. Ironically, more structural resistance will not stop the process but will increase the process of continuous regrinding experienced by the ROOSD mass.


You see, increased connection strength will not stop that train, but it will magnify the grinding process.

With ROOSD, increased connection strength does not mean the progression will slow or stop as people like Heiwa claim, but is does mean we can expect more grinding on all entrapped objects.

Major_Tom wrote:The only thing still lacking is a mathematical expression for ROOSD propagation.

In work.

No hurry. It may be fun to put together a decent study and send it to the Dr V fellow.

The progression is of interest without the demo question. That is his bag. He may appreciate seeing that the collapse process of the famous WTC towers matches his thesis.

I would use the word - chute - perhaps as opposed to funnel. A funnel narrows, constrains and directs the flow into a center. Funneling in fluid dynamics involves different interactions.
A chute also confines the flow. Both a chute and a funnel use gravity to propel the fluid. The fluid dynamics in a chute are different from that in a funnel.

And then there's the fluid dynamics in an enclosed tube... like a pipe, hose or even a blood vessel.

Many many years ago I was a tech assistant in the Bio Tech department for a PhD guy who was working on membrane oxygenators to be used in hear lung machines. The deal was how to get the blood to mix... and all of the red cells pass close enough to the membrane for the partial pressure to facilitate gas transfer through the semi permeable membrane. A heart lung machine cannot possibly match the surface area of the lungs with it millions of capillaries so we had to develop ways / strategies of getting the blood to oxygenate with the shortest transit time through the "system" with the most contact with the membrane. My job was to build their devices, get the bovine blood and then assist them in running their experiments. My first exposure to the complexities of mixing inside of various geometries in flows - laminar and turbulent.

ROOSD is a fluid dynamics problem I suspect... and the constrained outer tube and to a lesser extent the inner tube (core shaft walls) makes it quite the complex problem.