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Newton's 3rd Law and the Collapse of WTC 1

Analysis, observations and theory related to progression.

Re: Newton's 3rd Law and the Collapse of WTC 1

Postby T_Szamboti » Sun May 17, 2009 4:19 am

Dr. G wrote:Greening vs. Chandler and Newton’s Laws:

I note with amusement that someone who calls himself Reprehensor has posted the recent e-mail exchange between myself and Steven Jones on 9/11 Blogger. From the 40-plus comments Reprehensor’s post has generated I see that many Truthers view my opinions on Chandler’s “proof” (that the collapse of WTC 1 must have been a CD) as evidence that I misunderstand the basic rudiments of Newtonian physics. Well, I beg to differ and will now go through Chandler’s arguments one more time just to clarify my position on this issue.

Chandler’s arguement is as follows: During the collapse of WTC 1, an upper portion of the building, (let’s say the top 13 floors), started moving downward relative to the lower, fixed portion of the building, causing the lower portion to be crushed. Let’s call the (initial) mass of the upper block M(upper). For WTC 1, M(upper) was at least 30,000 tonnes and the initiating drop distance was presumably about 3.7 meters or one story height.

Measurements of the motion of the upper block show it dropped many story heights for the first 3 seconds with an approximately constant acceleration of 6.31 m/s^2 or 64 % of g. From this observation Chandler concludes that the block was subject to a net force of 0.64M(upper)g. Prior to the collapse of WTC 1, the lower portion of the building was perfectly capable of holding up the upper block which we know exerted a downward force equal to M(upper)g. So why, once the collapse started, was the lower section of WTC 1 not able to support a load of 0.64M(upper)g? Chandler’s answer to this question: During the collapse of WTC 1, the only way the upper block could have accelerated at 64 % of g was for the lower section of the building to have continuously lost its load-carrying capacity, presumably through the occurrence of column failures ahead of the collapse front. The fact that the downward acceleration was not far below g shows that columns failed without significant resistance. This, concludes Chandler, proves that the destruction of WTC 1 was a controlled demolition.

This all sounds like a very nice exercise in Newtonian mechanics, …. so how could it possibly be incorrect? Well, the main problem with Chandler’s analysis is that he is ignoring what actually happens to a building during collapse. In the collapse of WTC 1, the upper section is not the only part of the building that is set into motion. Evidently the top of the lower section also starts to move downwards, floor-by-floor. This means that some of the potential energy of the upper block is converted into kinetic energy of some portion of the lower block. For example, columns and beams at lower levels of the collapse front are set in motion as they are pushed downwards or sideways by a growing avalanche of debris. This means that we no longer have two distinct masses, M(upper) and M(lower). We have M(upper) = M(Initial upper) + dM/dt, and M(lower) = M(Initial lower) – dM/dt. Here dM/dt is the rate of mass accretion by the descending upper block. And this is without mass shedding ……

Obviously this situation greatly complicates momentum transfer calculations because you have to include a dM/dt term as well as a dv/dt (acceleration) term into your simple M1V1 = M2V2 calculations. I call it the the reverse rocket equation problem...... I challenge Chandler to re-do his analysis with inclusion of a dM/dt term.

Meanwhile, back in the war room, energy balance requires that:

a = g – E1/3.7M(upper)

where E1 is the energy needed to collapse one floor.

The fact that a is observed to be approximately constant means E1/M is also approximately constant. That E1/M should be more or less constant is consistent with the design of WTC 1 & 2, or indeed any tall building.


What a big waste of time all of this is! The lower columns were stronger in proportion to the greater mass they needed to carry. In addition, you don't even have a natural mechanism to deliver the energy you speak of, as the upper block of WTC 1 never decelerates at any time during the first 114 feet of it's drop, through which it was visible and measureable. That is proven now and I showed you what it should have looked like if a kinetic energy transferring impulse had occurred, with the velocity curve of the Balzac-Vitry demolition, which did decelerate after going through it's two story intentional drop.

Have you asked Dr. Bazant if he is going to modify his papers to correct for the lack of deceleration and the errors in column axial stiffness and kinetic energy to energy absorption ratio? It would probably be easier to just withdraw them as we now know there is no energy delivery for a natural collapse. Of course, he could just say that this recently put forward evidence invalidates his papers and that he now realizes the towers had to be demolished and write on how he thinks it was accomplished. He could probably do a good job on that and regain some of the respect he has lost.
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Re: Newton's 3rd Law and the Collapse of WTC 1

Postby Dr. G » Sun May 17, 2009 3:53 pm

Femr2 & T. Szamboti:

When I say that E1 is “the energy to collapse one floor” please note that E1 includes all the energy consumed during the descent of the upper block through one floor height (~ 3.7 meters). The E1 term therefore includes the energy to “fail” the columns, the energy to crush the floor trusses and office furniture, the energy to fracture and crush the concrete, etc. Because the value of a/g is 0.64 and (at the start of the collapse) M ~ 33,000 tonnes, we see that E1 ~ 0.5 GJ.

Now I fully realize that the core columns are “stronger” on the lower floors of the Towers, however, because the acceleration, a, is relatively constant for the first 3 seconds of collapse, E1/M must also be relatively constant over this time. And, by the way, this is an observational fact, not an assumption of any collapse model! So let’s look at how we would expect E1/M to vary over the first part of the collapse of WTC 1.

The first 3 seconds of motion of the upper block of WTC 1 corresponds to a drop of about 10 floors so we are actually looking at the collapse of say floors 96 to 86. The core column areas for these floors were approximately 2 m^2 for floor 96 and 3 m^2 for floor 86. The extra mass picked up over ten floors (ignoring any mass shedding) would be about 20,000 tonnes, so we have M increasing by a factor of 53,000/33,000 = 1.6; and E1, assumed to be directly proportional to the column areas, increasing by 1.5. Thus we see that E1/M is indeed approximately constant for the floors of interest.

Now on the question of energy transfer, deceleration and all that, I would say there is obviously a lot of energy transfer going on during the collapse because the upper block is performing work on the lower section of the building by accelerating material such as steel columns and beams, concrete, etc, at the collapse interface. Thus some of the potential energy released by the downward motion of the upper block is converted into the kinetic energy of the layer of debris/rubble at the collapse interface. And some of the KE so created may be “lost” through sideways ejections of material; nevertheless, there is no reason why the overall velocity of the falling mass cannot increase. Furthermore, I believe it is quite realistic to consider the collapse not as a drop-bump-drop-bump…. kind of motion but as a s-m-o-o-t-h process of destruction leading to a continuous buildup of momentum.
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Re: Newton's 3rd Law and the Collapse of WTC 1

Postby Heiwa » Sun May 17, 2009 4:20 pm

Just for info I copy correspondence with 1337m4n at
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php? ... ost4722031 .

1337m4n believes in conservation of mass (sic) but probably means momentum:

Originally Posted by 1337m4n

"If that's really the case, then please explain how this (a toy with suspended steel balls hitting one another) works. Surely you've seen one of these toys before; how do they work according to your theory?



Um, ever heard of conservation of mass? The falling portion does not lose mass simply because it is broken up.

A car is too heavy for you to lift. If you break that car into tiny pieces and place those pieces in a (hypothetically) weightless crate, it will STILL be too heavy for you to lift. Get it? "


??? A solid ball C with mass m hitting another same mass ball A at velocity v; C stops and A goes off a velocity v (almost - very quick acceleration of A and retardation/deceleration of C and some loss of energy due to compression at hit). What has this to do with Myriads Proposed Design for Progressive Collapse Demonstration? C is supposed to one way crush down A! Not to stop!

Or two solid balls C1 and C2 contacting three balls A1, A2 and A3, the latter being in contact with each other; first C1 hits the three balls A123 and A3 is shot away, then C2 hits three balls C1A12 and A2 is shot away. Simple solid mechanics! Has nothing to do with structural damage analysis, e.g. WTC1!

WTC 1! Part C consists of say 13 floors, C1, C2 ... C13 (roof/hat truss) and part A consist of 97 floors, A97, A96, ... A1, with A1 connected to ground. A1 has very strong supports above it - A1 carries A2 ... A97 + C1 ... C13!

So first contact may be floor C1 hitting floor A97.

So what do you expect would happen? That ground below floor A1 flies away?

No, actually the energy that C1 applies to A97 at contact is first transformed into compression of all supports between ground and floor A97 for which you need a force F that C1 applies on A97.

A97 is clever and applies a force -F on C1 and its supports up to C13. What do you think -F does? Does it compress the C supports? Yes, it does! Does it decelerate C1? Yes it should.

As the supports between C1 and C2 are weaker than the supports between A97 and A96 (even with regard to fact that C1 now rests on A97) you can be sure that the C supports fail first if any supports fails (otherwise C bounces on A). What happens then?

Right! C2 drops on C1 that is resting on A97. What happens then?

Right! Supports between C2/C3 fails and C3 drops on C2 that is resting on C1. Etc, etc. Maybe local destruction stops when C5-C13 just bounce?

You see, you cannot one-way crush down a structure A by a small part C of same structure previously resting on A just using gravity energy.

The perpetrators of the WTC 1 9/11 destruction knew this so they planted disinfo to the contrary at once! A man in the street explained to FOX TV that towers just self destruct one-way crush downs global collapses due to local failures up top and a few days later a certain professor confirmed this strange phenomenon small C crushes big A (C rigid though, A very weak to suit!). The shocked public believed it. But they were simply fooled.

As is clear from this and similar JREF threads a one-way gravity crush down of a structure is not possible.
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Re: Newton's 3rd Law and the Collapse of WTC 1

Postby T_Szamboti » Sun May 17, 2009 4:46 pm

Dr. G wrote:Furthermore, I believe it is quite realistic to consider the collapse not as a drop-bump-drop-bump…. kind of motion but as a s-m-o-o-t-h process of destruction leading to a continuous buildup of momentum.


Unfortunately, the math and physics do not support what you believe.

Please provide just one historical example of what you are advocating here, other than the unconstrained domino model collapse video you showed a while back.
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Re: Newton's 3rd Law and the Collapse of WTC 1

Postby newton » Sun May 17, 2009 5:06 pm

Dr. G wrote:Femr2 & T. Szamboti:

Now I fully realize that the core columns are “stronger” on the lower floors of the Towers, however, because the acceleration, a, is relatively constant for the first 3 seconds of collapse, E1/M must also be relatively constant over this time. And, by the way, this is an observational fact, not an assumption of any collapse model! So let’s look at how we would expect E1/M to vary over the first part of the collapse of WTC 1.



it was an observational fact that the towers were exploding. the rate of collapse of a demolition is not proof that it collapsed naturally. measuring the rates, and then saying because it happened it was 'natural' is a non-starter.

nevermind the 'gimme' one story drop for your impossible collapsing steel building.

you can SEE waves of timed bombs blowing out the floors, allowing the cap to pick up momentum. you can SEE mis-timed explosions tens of storeys below the destruction wave. every witness and media outlet reporting live described "secondary explosionS" with an 's'. firefighters saw "low level flashes" that preceded the collapse.
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Re: Newton's 3rd Law and the Collapse of WTC 1

Postby femr2 » Sun May 17, 2009 5:33 pm

I'll have to 'cherry-pick' through your response to try and gather answers to my prior questions, so forgive the snipping.

Dr. G wrote:E1 includes all the energy consumed during the descent of the upper block through one floor height (~ 3.7 meters).

OK.

Because the value of a/g is 0.64 and (at the start of the collapse) M ~ 33,000 tonnes, we see that E1 ~ 0.5 GJ.

I thought we were all supposed to be learning and improving upon any previous positions ?
My calcs put the initial cap mass to be ~27.36e6 Kg. As this is an international arena, may I suggest usage of Kg rather than locale dependant terms. Tons, Tonnes, Short Tons, ...all have significant variation depending upon country of origin. May I also suggest using more accurate source figures with sources.

I am disappointed that all of your descriptions assume 'collapse'. I prefer the term 'descent', which should also filter through into all descriptive phrases and allow for the possibility of both 'stances'. Your application of E1 only makes any 'sense' if you assume 'collapse'. For example, if a big 'bomb' initiated the descent, then the value E1 has very little meaning. Of much more significance is the full-cycle behaviour of the descent, and the continued linear rate ejecta from the tower much further along that cycle, as highlighted in the video linked-in below. This is why I questioned your concluding statement.

I fully realize that the core columns are “stronger” on the lower floors of the Towers, however, because the acceleration, a, is relatively constant for the first 3 seconds of collapse

My question was whether E1 was constant, as you suggested "That E1/M should be more or less constant is consistent with the design of WTC 1 & 2, or indeed any tall building."
Are you now retracting that statement and applying your hypothesis to the first 3 seconds of the descent only ? I hope so, as it is a rather significant 'leap'.

Q. Are you suggesting that this balancing provides explanation for the linear rate of destruction throughout most of the Tower descent ? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMeTGfCZWMI)
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Re: Newton's 3rd Law and the Collapse of WTC 1

Postby Dr. G » Sun May 17, 2009 7:00 pm

femr2:

I guess you are not familiar with the meaning of the symbol "~". It means "approximately" or "about". And I am sorry I was not aware that you have calculated the mass of the upper block of WTC 1 to be 27,360,000 kg. But if this is your result are you saying I have to accept it as gospel.... The fact is, you can use your calculated value in my post instead of the 33,000,000 kg I used but it will not change my argument one iota!

With regard to your question about "the linear rate of destruction", did I ever suggest there was a linear rate of destruction? After a protracted exponential induction phase,there was a relatively constant acceleration for a few seconds. After that we cannot see the motion of the roofline so we cannot use observation to confirm or deny a collapse calculation.

Newton:

You misunderstand me! I am not saying that the observed rate of collapse of WTC 1 proves it was a natural collapse. I am saying that the observed rate of collapse is consistent with a relatively constant energy decrement per floor of ~ 0.5 GJ, which, in turn, is consistent with the known variation in the strength and mass of floors 86 - 96.

T. Szamboti:

Apart from the Twin Towers, I dont have any examples of the collapse of two 110 story buildings, .........do you?
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Re: Newton's 3rd Law and the Collapse of WTC 1

Postby femr2 » Sun May 17, 2009 7:18 pm

Dr. G wrote:I guess you are not familiar with the meaning of the symbol "~". It means "approximately" or "about". And I am sorry I was not aware that you have calculated the mass of the upper block of WTC 1 to be 27,360,000 kg. But if this is your result are you saying I have to accept it as gospel.... The fact is, you can use your calculated value in my post instead of the 33,000,000 kg I used but it will not change my argument one iota!

With regard to your question about "the linear rate of destruction", did I ever suggest there was a linear rate of destruction? After a protracted exponential induction phase,there was a relatively constant acceleration for a few seconds. After that we cannot see the motion of the roofline so we cannot use observation to confirm or deny a collapse calculation.

There is no need to be so defensive.
I'm fully aware of the meaning of "~" thanks. I guess that suggesting using as accurate base figures as possible, with known source and internationally clear notation is not something you agree with, given your response ?

My entire line of questioning, again, is due to your final conclusion:

The fact that a is observed to be approximately constant means E1/M is also approximately constant. That E1/M should be more or less constant is consistent with the design of WTC 1 & 2, or indeed any tall building.


This statement appears to apply to much more than the first 3 seconds of the descent of the WTC Tower, and is also being applied not only to WTC 1 & WTC 2, but ANY tall building.

So, do you still hold to your conclusion, or not ?
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Re: Newton's 3rd Law and the Collapse of WTC 1

Postby femr2 » Sun May 17, 2009 7:38 pm

A slightly off-topic question, but one I've been trying to gather clear information on...

Q. Is the energy required to 'fail' a column with cross-sectional area (x) half the energy required to 'fail' a column with cross-sectional area (2x) ?
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Re: Newton's 3rd Law and the Collapse of WTC 1

Postby T_Szamboti » Sun May 17, 2009 8:34 pm

femr2 wrote:A slightly off-topic question, but one I've been trying to gather clear information on...

Q. Is the energy required to 'fail' a column with cross-sectional area (x) half the energy required to 'fail' a column with cross-sectional area (2x) ?


Assuming the columns are made of the same material, and all of the columns are considered sufficiently compact so the failure mode is due to compressive rupture, then the above would be true.

However, if buckling is involved it may not be a simple proportion as the buckling energies may not scale depending on whether or not the column can sustain a full plastic moment. I am not sure if you are aware of how columns are classed for being able to develop a full plastic moment without local buckling. If you aren't here is a reference.

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/civeng/H23S ... %20SHS.pdf

See pages 5 through 7.
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Re: Newton's 3rd Law and the Collapse of WTC 1

Postby T_Szamboti » Sun May 17, 2009 8:46 pm

Dr. G wrote:
T. Szamboti:

Apart from the Twin Towers, I dont have any examples of the collapse of two 110 story buildings, .........do you?


I did not restrict your answer to 110 story buildings but you apparently felt the need to. Why?

I'll ask the question more specifically this time.

Can you provide a historic example of any steel framed multi-story building (other than a controlled demolition), which had a two or more story collapse in the smooth way you advocate, that is without any deceleration of the falling upper portion on impact with the lower structure?
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Re: Newton's 3rd Law and the Collapse of WTC 1

Postby Hambone » Sun May 17, 2009 10:21 pm

T_Szamboti wrote:What a big waste of time all of this is! The lower columns were stronger in proportion to the greater mass they needed to carry. In addition, you don't even have a natural mechanism to deliver the energy you speak of, as the upper block of WTC 1 never decelerates at any time during the first 114 feet of it's drop, through which it was visible and measureable. That is proven now and I showed you what it should have looked like if a kinetic energy transferring impulse had occurred, with the velocity curve of the Balzac-Vitry demolition, which did decelerate after going through it's two story intentional drop.

Have you asked Dr. Bazant if he is going to modify his papers to correct for the lack of deceleration and the errors in column axial stiffness and kinetic energy to energy absorption ratio? It would probably be easier to just withdraw them as we now know there is no energy delivery for a natural collapse. Of course, he could just say that this recently put forward evidence invalidates his papers and that he now realizes the towers had to be demolished and write on how he thinks it was accomplished. He could probably do a good job on that and regain some of the respect he has lost.


You were looking for a ghost and are surprised you didn't find it. The Balzac-Vitry demolition is as close to a text-book demonstration of Bazant's model as we will ever find. This model simply cannot predict the behavior of a collapse where the top part is tilting unless you can show that there were simultaneous impacts, which is a basic premise of the model. You have still not shown that there are any simultaneous impacts

I posted this earlier (maybe you missed it):

Imagine delicately placing the top part on the lower part with a 3 degree tilt such that only the south wall was in contact. What would the instantaneous load on the lower/upper south wall be? It would be slightly more than 50% of the total mass which is beyond the ultimate strength, let alone the yield strength. For columns closer to the center to load will be even higher! I have pointed out previously that there was no south wall to impact. Do you deny this?

Then comes the dynamics: If the lower columns are to remain intact, the top part must be provided with an angular acceleration. The only place this angular acceleration can come from is the normal force from the lower columns. I'm too lazy to calculate the force required for this acceleration, but what is clear is that it makes the overload ever worse.

This is why Bazant correctly identifies evenly distributed simultaneous impacts as the most optimistic scenario. Of course, not everything in Bazant's model is "most optimistic for survival of the tower", but the basic impact scenario is.

Of course this applies to the upper columns as well.
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Re: Newton's 3rd Law and the Collapse of WTC 1

Postby Hambone » Sun May 17, 2009 10:26 pm

T_Szamboti wrote:Can you provide a historic example of any steel framed multi-story building (other than a controlled demolition), which had a two or more story collapse in the smooth way you advocate, that is without any deceleration of the falling upper portion on impact with the lower structure?


Can you provide a historic example of a 110 story building that was hit by a 767 at cruising speed which then burned for an hour but did not collapse?

Stop this nonsense.
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Re: Newton's 3rd Law and the Collapse of WTC 1

Postby T_Szamboti » Sun May 17, 2009 11:56 pm

Hambone wrote:
T_Szamboti wrote:Can you provide a historic example of any steel framed multi-story building (other than a controlled demolition), which had a two or more story collapse in the smooth way you advocate, that is without any deceleration of the falling upper portion on impact with the lower structure?


Can you provide a historic example of a 110 story building that was hit by a 767 at cruising speed which then burned for an hour but did not collapse?

Stop this nonsense.


Just because you don't like something that is said does not make it nonsense. Please show the evidence that the aircraft impact and fires caused the complete collapse of the twin towers. They are really non-sequiturs.

Frank Greening said he believes that the collapse of WTC 1 could have occurred in a smooth fashion without deceleration of the upper block. I simply wanted to know what would make him think that was possible. I thought maybe he knew of an historic example as he obviously hasn't been able to show it could occur analytically and neither has anyone else here who simply believes it is possible. On the other hand it is relatively simple to show how it could occur with the use of demolition devices and there are historic examples.

Balzac-Vitry proves both Bazant and myself correct about an impulse being necessary to continue collapse after an initial near freefall of one or two stories. What proves Bazant wrong about WTC 1 is that there was no impulse to continue the collapse after the initial fall.
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Re: Newton's 3rd Law and the Collapse of WTC 1

Postby T_Szamboti » Mon May 18, 2009 12:23 am

Hambone wrote:
T_Szamboti wrote:What a big waste of time all of this is! The lower columns were stronger in proportion to the greater mass they needed to carry. In addition, you don't even have a natural mechanism to deliver the energy you speak of, as the upper block of WTC 1 never decelerates at any time during the first 114 feet of it's drop, through which it was visible and measureable. That is proven now and I showed you what it should have looked like if a kinetic energy transferring impulse had occurred, with the velocity curve of the Balzac-Vitry demolition, which did decelerate after going through it's two story intentional drop.

Have you asked Dr. Bazant if he is going to modify his papers to correct for the lack of deceleration and the errors in column axial stiffness and kinetic energy to energy absorption ratio? It would probably be easier to just withdraw them as we now know there is no energy delivery for a natural collapse. Of course, he could just say that this recently put forward evidence invalidates his papers and that he now realizes the towers had to be demolished and write on how he thinks it was accomplished. He could probably do a good job on that and regain some of the respect he has lost.


You were looking for a ghost and are surprised you didn't find it. The Balzac-Vitry demolition is as close to a text-book demonstration of Bazant's model as we will ever find. This model simply cannot predict the behavior of a collapse where the top part is tilting unless you can show that there were simultaneous impacts, which is a basic premise of the model. You have still not shown that there are any simultaneous impacts

I posted this earlier (maybe you missed it):

Imagine delicately placing the top part on the lower part with a 3 degree tilt such that only the south wall was in contact. What would the instantaneous load on the lower/upper south wall be? It would be slightly more than 50% of the total mass which is beyond the ultimate strength, let alone the yield strength. For columns closer to the center to load will be even higher! I have pointed out previously that there was no south wall to impact. Do you deny this?

Then comes the dynamics: If the lower columns are to remain intact, the top part must be provided with an angular acceleration. The only place this angular acceleration can come from is the normal force from the lower columns. I'm too lazy to calculate the force required for this acceleration, but what is clear is that it makes the overload ever worse.

This is why Bazant correctly identifies evenly distributed simultaneous impacts as the most optimistic scenario. Of course, not everything in Bazant's model is "most optimistic for survival of the tower", but the basic impact scenario is.

Of course this applies to the upper columns as well.


In an earlier response to you on this I told you that a non-simultaneous set of impacts does not explain the lack of velocity loss and deceleration in the upper block of WTC 1, as the sum of their energy consumptions would produce a velocity loss similar to what would occur in a simultaneous impact of all of the columns. Did you miss my earlier comment on this?

You also do not explain what occurs in the stories after the initial story fall, where the upper block fell pretty much vertical.
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