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Chandler/Legge: Refutation of Pentagon Flyover

The Pentagon event.

Chandler/Legge: Refutation of Pentagon Flyover

Postby SnowCrash » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:24 pm

The Pentagon Attack on 9/11: A Refutation of the Pentagon Flyover Hypothesis Based on Analysis of the Flight Path

By Frank Legge (B.Sc., Ph.D., Chemistry) and David Chandler (B.S. Physics, M.S.,Mathematics), September 2011

Interesting paper. No doubt CIT will claim, as they have, that the radar data was forged, which means they can shift the turn-off point to the southwest in order to lower the g requirements.
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Re: Chandler/Legge: Refutation of Pentagon Flyover

Postby SanderO » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:58 pm

There is no way to prove the provenance, accuracy or reliability of digital data with respect to aviation. All of it is easily subject to *hacking*.

The arguments about what happened on 911 based on reported aviation data files can only show that it is in fact unreliable... and one cannot derive anything with certainty from these data sets.
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Re: Chandler/Legge: Refutation of Pentagon Flyover

Postby SnowCrash » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:05 pm

SanderO wrote:The arguments about what happened on 911 based on reported aviation data files can only show that it is in fact unreliable... and one cannot derive anything with certainty from these data sets.


You mean this data set?

Image

Or this data set?

Click for full size image

Or this non-aviation data set?

Click for full size image

You have the onus backwards, I think.
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Re: Chandler/Legge: Refutation of Pentagon Flyover

Postby SnowCrash » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:09 am

Oh, nevermind Sander0, I see on the net that you're strongly allied with P4T and CIT. We've both made up our minds.
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Re: Chandler/Legge: Refutation of Pentagon Flyover

Postby scott » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:10 pm

SnowCrash wrote:Oh, nevermind Sander0, I see on the net that you're strongly allied with P4T and CIT. We've both made up our minds.


I'm not strongly allied with either P4T or CIT, and yet I understand enough to realize they're on the right track. Put simply, there's no way that a 757 hit the pentagon. As to Legge's work, it's been thoroughly debunked by true experts in the field; that is, by members of Pilots for 9/11 Truth (P4T), a forum whose core members are all pilots. Here's their latest thread on the subject, in case you missed it over at 911oz:
Frank Legge Begging For Peer Reviewers For Pentagon Paper, gets deleted at 911Blogger...

And in case you missed why Frank Legge has apparently become desperate for some good reviews from actual experienced pilots, you may want to take a look at P4T's review of his previous paper:
A Response To Frank Legge And Warren Stutt, P4T rebuttal to Legge/Stutt "Paper" and "Rebuttal"
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Re: Chandler/Legge: Refutation of Pentagon Flyover

Postby SnowCrash » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:53 pm

Oh please no. Not you. Say it isn't so. Not here.
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Re: Chandler/Legge: Refutation of Pentagon Flyover

Postby scott » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:35 pm

SnowCrash wrote:Oh please no. Not you. Say it isn't so. Not here.


If you'd spend less time on your personal animosities towards individuals in the Truth Movement and more time focusing on the actual evidence, you'd learn a lot more.
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Re: Chandler/Legge: Refutation of Pentagon Flyover

Postby SnowCrash » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:27 pm

Fortunately, this forum has an ignore list as well.
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Re: Chandler/Legge: Refutation of Pentagon Flyover

Postby SanderO » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:22 pm

I am not strongly aligned with anyone. I stated that digital data is unreliable and can be hacked... that includes the RADES data and the FDR data and this is the data used to explain the flight of the planes.

Eye witness testimony is also not especially reliable either.
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Re: Chandler/Legge: Refutation of Pentagon Flyover

Postby scott » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:54 pm

SanderO wrote:I am not strongly aligned with anyone. I stated that digital data is unreliable and can be hacked... that includes the RADES data and the FDR data and this is the data used to explain the flight of the planes.

Eye witness testimony is also not especially reliable either.


I've studied this issue for 2 years or so now. CIT and PFT have been at it much longer and the amount of information they've collected is substantial. Both groups have been attacked by others in the truth movement and both groups aren't always cuddly themselves. But after these 2 years of looking through the available information and trying to understand as much of it as I can, I feel quite strongly that CIT and PFT are on the right track; that is, that there's simply no way that a 757 could have hit the pentagon. I myself still wonder if perhaps a much smaller craft hit the pentagon; perhaps a plain designed to look like a larger plane but actually just a small scale model. That would be more in keeping with the small amount of debris that was seen at the pentagon as well as one piece of debris I saw that look suspiciously like mini windows. I don't know if you're familiar with any of the videos of both CIT and PFT. You can see videos, additional information and forums of both at their respective sites:
http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/news.html

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/

I also found this video, which isn't part of either group. It's short and sweet. I liked it quite a bit although I don't think that a missile hit the pentagon:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x19ta5 ... shortfilms
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Re: Chandler/Legge: Refutation of Pentagon Flyover

Postby achimspok » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:00 am

Yes, you can manipulate and alter electronic records.
CIT has shown that you can even alter the meaning of the words of eye witness testimonies.
They do it all the time. Paik, Lagasse, Morin, Hemphill... and the "first known accomplice" the old cabbie.
Would they fake the part of the data they previously couldn't extract? Stutt extracted these data and they are conclusive. A flyover is not nor a north path.

No way that a 757 could hit the Pentagon? Why not?

On the other hand, there is no way for Morin watching the NOC plane descending behind trees.
There is no way that Paik saw the plane over the Annex because he was inside the shop when it passed the shop and it took 2-3 seconds for it to descent below any possible line of sight for Paik while he would need at least 10 seconds to reach Columbia Pike.
and so on...
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Re: Chandler/Legge: Refutation of Pentagon Flyover

Postby scott » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:12 pm

achimspok wrote:Yes, you can manipulate and alter electronic records.
CIT has shown that you can even alter the meaning of the words of eye witness testimonies.
They do it all the time. Paik, Lagasse, Morin, Hemphill... and the "first known accomplice" the old cabbie.


How do you believe CIT has altered the "meaning of the words of eye witness testimonies"?

achimspok wrote:Would they fake the part of the data they previously couldn't extract? Stutt extracted these data and they are conclusive. A flyover is not nor a north path.


I'm fairly sure Pilots for 9/11 Truth would have something to say about your conclusion there.

achimspok wrote:No way that a 757 could hit the Pentagon? Why not?


I think that Pilots for 9/11 Truth's article here explains it rather well..
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pentagon.html

achimspok wrote:On the other hand, there is no way for Morin watching the NOC plane descending behind trees.


No way for him to see it crash into the Pentagon, I agree. But he could see it before then.

achimspok wrote:There is no way that Paik saw the plane over the Annex because he was inside the shop when it passed the shop and it took 2-3 seconds for it to descent below any possible line of sight for Paik while he would need at least 10 seconds to reach Columbia Pike.


I believe he simply saw the flight path it took and thus came up with the trajectory of it going over the Navy Annex. I don't believe it was ever said that he actually saw it over the Navy Annex. This being said, others -did- report seeing it over the Navy Annex, including some people who were at the Navy Annex itself (Terry Morin, Erik Dihle, Albert Hemphill).

achimspok wrote:and so on...


Let's hear of these "so on" people :-p...
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Re: Chandler/Legge: Refutation of Pentagon Flyover

Postby achimspok » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:23 pm

How do you believe CIT has altered the "meaning of the words of eye witness testimonies"?


We already talked about Morin and his "I was inside" vs. "collision memorial" argument.

Another example is Sucherman:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/pumpitout/topic/3457944/2/
I will just copy some older posts here:

The CIT production "The USA Today Parade (featuring Joel Sucherman & Mike Walter)" includes the following interview:

Joel Sucherman:
I was a little later getting into work than I normally would and the traffic for that time in the morning was heavier than usual. It was after ... the traditional morning rush hour. And I just get off the phone with my wife telling her, you know, the ... complain about the bumper to bumper traffic.

First, the CIT placement of the witnesses shows anything but a "bumper to bumper" traffic and places Joel Sucherman at the end of the row.
Image

Ranke: Can I ask you a question about that? You say it was heavier than usual for that time. Do you remember or recall a specific reason? Was there an accident or a blocking traffic as a result of something?
Joel Sucherman: No, it didn't appear that there was anything in particular was going on. It just seemed a higher volume of traffic than usual for that late morning. It was after 9:00 o'clock.
(fade)
Ranke: At this point you were on route 27?
Joel Sucherman: Yes, that's correct. And I came out from underneath the underpass. And so if you come out from under there you have to rise up to a hill. And that's where you get the view of the Pentagon up to the east, up to the right.
Ranke: OK, you said your field of vision to the left was simply from across the left to the right of your windshield. Is it correct?
Joel Sucherman: Not exactly. I saw it coming across my windshield but then certainly the passenger window of the vehicle...

Image

I had a clear view of the Pentagon. I would say the Pentagon is at 2 o'clock from me in my car. So I see it coming across my windshield and then I looked outside the side passenger window and thats where I see the collision with the Pentagon.

Ranke: So did you see it impact or were there trees in the way?
Joel Sucherman: No, there were no trees at this point in the way at all. I did see it impact.
Ranke: You did see it impact, OK.
Joel Sucherman: Yes.

Now, CIT starts to manipulate the presented information:
First, they show some trees on 9/11 right of the boulevard...
Image
...stating that these trees must have blocked the view of Sucherman.
Image

The presented image states "Pentagon at 2:00" but obviously it was shot
1) through the windshield
2) from below the underpass
3) from the left lane but nevertheless
4) the angle describes 12:30 at best

Image
And of course they omit the "hill" statement even if the bridge is the only one hill anywhere around that could open the view.

So instead of any correction to their bogus witness placement...
Image
...they cites Mike Walter who admitted a blocked view by some trees.
Image
Image

One has to ask if this brainwashing sh** is the work of some minor intelligent and bad educated people who try to "investigate" something or if it is a deliberate act of manipulation by well educated people who learned how to do it. For what reason? Obviously CIT has not the slightest doubt into the "100%" statement of Lagasse and Brooks, two Pentagon Police employees with some really strange behavior right in the seconds during and after the attack. No, their investigation started exactly there: Paik, Turcios, Lagasse, Brooks in 2006. (I will come back to this point later.)

Finally they use their key witness for the trees Mike Walter to present him also as a liar but out of context...

Mike Walter: When something hits a concrete structure like that - you know - this believe that the wings would going in is just ridiculous.

Obviously Mike Walter talks about something he learned in the years after the attacks. He repeats exactly one theory of forward kinking wings that was discussed a lot to explain the "too small" impact hole. CIT presents his statement as some "new recollection" after he admitted that trees blocked his view. Do CIT dismantle their own key witness? They have to because they also like to prove some complicit ABC journalist parade next to the flightpath.

So according to CIT some ABC boss told the journalists to go there and stop to wait for a plane or whatsoever? ...and brave Mary Ann Owens took the first row in the line without shooting some photographs because the plane flew over the Pentagon. Well, that's a [big][big]big movie[/big][/big]!

Nevertheless, the theory of forward folding wings is wrong to explain the small hole because
1) the fuselage disintegrated too fast to cause any significant forwards folding of the backwards angled wings
2) the cockpit would have to stop until the long wings reached some fitting angle.
So that is obviously not what Mike Walter witnessed but learned from the discussion about that topic.

The passage through the lamp posts requires the plane going this way trough it. The animation shows the plane with 5° upwards flexing wings. That's what we learned from the WTC attacks.
Image

Tracking this path to the impact we get exactly the position where the wings should hit the building.
Image
Did the plane bank away from the building? No. The generator acted like a ramp and pushed the starboard wing upwards.
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Re: Chandler/Legge: Refutation of Pentagon Flyover

Postby achimspok » Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:11 pm

Jamal-El-Kournayti

This is what he is showing:
Image

He said he saw the stripes of American Airlines, he saw the windows but not the people behind the windows. The plane went straight. He saw it for 3-4 seconds.

Ranke: "Tell me, what was the plane looked like to you as far as uhh the color?"
Jamal: "The American Airlines..."
Ranke: "Right but what was the color?"
Jamal: "The white stripes, red and..."
(He shows version 1.)
Ranke: "It was umm white stripes?"
Jamal: "Yeah. ... No, the the... plane was white and had stripes, you know."
(He shows version 2)
The video shows "WHITE PLANE" in huge white letters.
Ranke: "The plane was white. OK. And you did see stripes."
Jamal: "Oh yeah. Me an Mr. Spank. We was here."
Ranke: "For sure you saw stripes?"
Jamal: "Yeah."
Ranke: "What color were they?"
Jamal: "Red."
Ranke: "Red stripes."
Jamal: "Red I think and American Airlines as red and uhh..."
(He shows version 3)

What kind of stripes is he describing with his hands? Let's see!

Version 1:
Image

Version 2:
Image

Version 3:
Image

CIT version:
Image

...but so far everything Jamal showed and said is consistent with the FDR.
Image

...but CIT asked him to estimate how low that plane was. Jamal (who hardly spoke english and doesn't know the word "tail" or the words for the colors of the stripes he showed with the hands) estimated the plane flew half the height of the tree above the tree.
Anyone with a brain would immediately conclude that he couldn't have seen the stribes or windows if the plane was that low over the tree. His hands would point straight up to the sky to describe such a close plane but CIT decided that the plane flew this way:

Image

Now let's add Thomas Trapasso who said that the plane flew about 300ft right over his house.

Image

His house was surrounded by trees. Hence, he had to look straight up to see the plane.

Image

My conclusion. He saw the plane right above his house.
CIT conclusion: Trapasso is a liar and saw no plane because his house was surrounded by trees. And that is the reason why he didn't call the CIT clowns back.
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Re: Chandler/Legge: Refutation of Pentagon Flyover

Postby achimspok » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:29 pm

Mrs. Hubbert and Veronica
essentially show a path almost parallel to 13th St S but behind the houses.
Image
Veronica was on the sunny side of the plane just like Jamal. The reflecting fuselage appeared white. What a miracle. CIT now has the 3rd person who saw a "white plane".

Let's add Veronica:
Image

Say WOW! CIT forgot to mention that she is almost opposite to Paik. The paik-plane over the roof of the Annex would be hardly visible behind the trees. Well, this time CIT dont mention the trees.

Once again CIT turn the path in some better fitting fantasy path:
Image

Amazingly the CIT plane passed virtually behind Veronica while she looks down the 13th street.

Cindy Reyes
also lives at 13th street. (It's basically the same spot like Veronica in the google map above.) She saw the plane through her bathroom window opposite to the south side of the Sheraton Hotel.
Image

She describes a descending plane as high as the tree in the right of the GIF.
Ranke: "Did it come from straight to the left or from behind us?"

You know why Ranke had to ask that (because the CIT plane was behind Veronica).

Cindy: "It came from behind us like this."
Image

Here is the location of Cindy and the direction of her bathroom window.
Image
She recalls a blue stripe on the side.

CIT found a fifth witness of a white plane or better of a champaigne color like the little house over there. Just compare the color of that house to the color of the sky. What color should a silver reflecting plane have on a day like that?
Image

You see, everything CIT works with is the re-/new-interpretation of recalled accounts and bow it until it fits. Somewhere I wrote somthing about the way the raped the Lloyed England testimony. I will copy it here when I find it.
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