The 9/11 Forum

Enforcing Right-Thinking, as you may know, is a paying job:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/01/15/sunstein/index.html

Glen Greenwald wrote:It is this history of government deceit and wrongdoing that renders Sunstein's desire to use covert propaganda to "undermine" anti-government speech so repugnant. The reason conspiracy theories resonate so much is precisely that people have learned -- rationally -- to distrust government actions and statements. Sunstein's proposed covert propaganda scheme is a perfect illustration of why that is. In other words, people don't trust the Government and "conspiracy theories" are so pervasive precisely because government is typically filled with people like Cass Sunstein, who think that systematic deceit and government-sponsored manipulation are justified by their own Goodness and Superior Wisdom.

Yah.

C'mon down Cass. Let's have a chat, dipshit.

Funny stuff (irony)

I think the rational view must be more like this...

* As a covert scheme, it's already an epic fail.
* As a supposed tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy nut-job, bearing in mind my "side of the fence", it's been clear for many a long year that such a scheme was running, and still is. (I obtained the IP's of a number of notorious *debunkers* a while back, and guess what ? All on the same sub-net. Hilarious.)

Sooooo, what is the purpose here ?

I'd hazard a guess that it's about...

* Going "public" about such a process to try and nail the coffin shut on a few topics
* Create "fear" by fueling those prone to MIB paranoia.
* "Covertly" warn those who speak out that "we ARE watching you".
* Open the door to legislative control over free-speech and dissenting voice.
* Stem the flow of people turning from "sheeple" into angry "citizens".

All I'd like to say is this...

I am a free man. I was born free. Whether legal or not, I will do and say whatever I please on any topic I choose to. I did not knowingly or unknowingly sign-up to any form of citizenship, or hand control of any of my self-defined birthrights to any entity.

Times have changed guys, and these days there are so many people who have (re)learned how to think for themselves and ask questions, that there is not an event on the planet that is not *investigated* by hordes of *tinfoil hat wearing nutjobs* to an extent that if it's BS, it gets exposed as BS.

Conspiracy+Theory is all growed up. It has matured. And it breeds.

Is there still a lot of rubbish out there ? Sure. *Prominent* 9/11 CT sites still peddle mountains of crap, but the point is that new events are investigated by millions of people in as much depth as is possible. If it doesn't stack up, the seed of doubt is spread far and wide.

A9/H1N1 (Swine Flu) jab anyone ?

I particular like the way in which he frames Popular Mechanics.

Expanding the cast further, one may see the game as involving four players: government officials, conspiracy theorists, mass audiences, and independent experts – such as mainstream scientists or the editors of Popular Mechanics – whom government attempts to enlist to give credibility to its rebuttal efforts.

Like we didn't know??

i was a little surprised when i heard this... it's just like what they did with the war protestors and other groups in history.. but this kinda says to me that, they are scared.

by admitting this, it gives more power to these groups, suggesting that the government is worried about CT influence.
if they weren't worried about it, why invest any time or money?

funny, it's pretty self defeating IMO.
they would be better off just ignoring it all.
and if they're looking for radicals who have violent intentions, they already watch that stuff.
you type in the wrong words or say the wrong words on the phone, and you're now being watched much closer.

so to me, this seems stupid.

* As a supposed tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy nut-job, bearing in mind my "side of the fence", it's been clear for many a long year that such a scheme was running, and still is. (I obtained the IP's of a number of notorious *debunkers* a while back, and guess what ? All on the same sub-net. Hilarious.)

would you mind pming me the names of these notorious debunkers? just curious.

I am a free man. I was born free. Whether legal or not, I will do and say whatever I please on any topic I choose to. I did not knowingly or unknowingly sign-up to any form of citizenship, or hand control of any of my self-defined birthrights to any entity.

Times have changed guys, and these days there are so many people who have (re)learned how to think for themselves and ask questions, that there is not an event on the planet that is not *investigated* by hordes of *tinfoil hat wearing nutjobs* to an extent that if it's BS, it gets exposed as BS.

Conspiracy+Theory is all growed up. It has matured. And it breeds.

Very well said, i like how you worded that.
thanks to the internet, it's much more difficult to hide things these days, we just need more people to be interested in knowledge and personal investigation, rather than staring at the tv and blindly trusting/accepting all the biased/censored information.

group think, ftl.
individuality, ftw.

iconoclast wrote:would you mind pming me the names of these notorious debunkers? just curious.

Sorry, no can do. All web sites log the IP of every visitor, so it's not exactly clandestine information.

femr2 wrote:I did not knowingly or unknowingly sign-up to any form of citizenship, or hand control of any of my self-defined birthrights to any entity.

Very few people ever come to such a realization.

Alright. Here's another one. Why start another thread? This one will do just fine.

We all know truthers suck, right? Menace to society on the one hand, impotent teenager in their mother's basement on the other, according to convenience.

How about these guys?

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2010/01/hbc-90006368

Do they suck? Are they menaces?

Anyway, while moon hoax believers haven't established a reputation for literally ripping innocent human beings' throats out, it only means they are very crafty and keep a low profile about such things.

---

Can a wide variety of government agencies cooperate in secret to cover up heinous crimes over extended periods? Sure, sure, 3000 versus 3, us versus them - there's a difference.

Now, to take things up just a notch, reframe this situation in your mind as a well-orchestrated limited hangout. Don't tell me I'm stupid because I don't think they're too stupid to do it, it would make you look stupid.

OneWhiteEye wrote:We all know truthers suck, right?

Depends upon what you mean. We are both *truthers* from my perspective. We seek the truth. It's only the fact that the vocabulary has been bastardised with new inference that the word has any other meaning. Just the same as the old-skool conjunction of the words *conspiracy* and *theory* (Which is why I specifically used "Conspiracy+Theory" above)

There is almost no mention of conspiracy here, though there is quite a bit of theory.

I'll plagarise a few words of wisdom...

I contend that we are both atheists; I just believe in one fewer god than you. When you understand why you reject all other gods, you will understand why I reject yours.

...rewritten as...

I contend that we are both truthers; I just believe in one fewer theory than you. When you understand why you reject all other theories, you will understand why I reject yours.

On second thoughts, that doesn't work too well on several levels , but I'm sure there's a way of making it fit. Probably need to reverse the fewer into more somehow.

How about these guys?

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2010/01/hbc-90006368

Do they suck? Are they menaces?

Not the words I would choose, but a shocking story (though sadly all too common these days). The list of events which could be included here is almost endless, I hope all would agree.

Anyway, while moon hoax believers haven't established a reputation for literally ripping innocent human beings' throats out, it only means they are very crafty and keep a low profile about such things.

I heard they were all abducted and subjected to all manner of rather uncomfortable probing, poor things. There are a lot of problems with a lot of the visual evidence you know, though I am in no doubt we've been to t'moon (and other places besides)

Now, to take things up just a notch, reframe this situation in your mind as a well-orchestrated limited hangout. Don't tell me I'm stupid because I don't think they're too stupid to do it, it would make you look stupid.

Oh my poor brain. How about turning a box inside out with my mind instead. That's much easier.

This situation ? What situation ?

femr2 wrote:Depends upon what you mean.

Fake derision. My cheek is hurting again, from the tongue pressing so hard into it.

The list of events which could be included here is almost endless, I hope all would agree.

Agreed.

This situation ? What situation ?

The situation of well-coordinated interagency coverup, however small. A situation where the site watch commander isn't even cleared to know about an incident that a low level Justice clerk is tasked with covering up. The 'notch' is imagining it not as a cover-up, but as an intentional release of information, for the purpose of erecting a psychological barrier to further inquiry on the basis that this is quite shocking enough.

OneWhiteEye wrote:The situation of well-coordinated interagency coverup, however small. A situation where the site watch commander isn't even cleared to know about an incident that a low level Justice clerk is tasked with covering up. The 'notch' is imagining it not as a cover-up, but as an intentional release of information, for the purpose of erecting a psychological barrier to further inquiry on the basis that this is quite shocking enough.

Oh christ yeah. These days, anyone questioning any aspect of any event is labelled, and simply because the event can now be associated with the label the question draws answers from absolute arses, at the same time as a sizeable chunk of the population tune out to go and do something more interesting instead.

The re-branding of Conspiracy+Theory was a work of genius.

A fantastic polarisation mechanism, invoked with ease, and impossible to shake off once applied.

This is rich:

The Inner Worlds of Conspiracy Believers

A related, unpublished survey of more than 1,000 British adults found that 9/11 conspiracy believers not only often subscribed to a variety of well-known conspiracy theories, but also frequently agreed with an invented conspiracy. Christopher French of Goldsmiths, University of London, and Patrick Leman of Royal Holloway, University of London, both psychologists, asked volunteers about eight common conspiracy theories and one that researchers made up: “The government is using mobile phone technology to track everyone all the time.”

Emphasis mine.

http://www.gpsdaily.com/reports/That_Cell_Phone_In_Your_Hand_Is_A_Tracking_Device_999.html

Just how often law enforcement has used the technology to track down a body or help solve a crime was not available, mostly because agencies are reluctant to discuss their investigative tools.

Bill Hagmaier, executive director of the International Homicide Investigators Association, said almost all major police agencies employ the technique to crack cases.

"It's an outstanding tool. Who doesn't carry a cell phone these days? Cell phones are almost as popular as jewelry and wallets," he said. "It's a fairly new investigative tool but it's one that is certainly growing in use."

Again, emphasis mine.

It's apparent that the government is using mobile phone technology to track some people some of the time. Readers in the pub may recall the J.K. argument about the meaning of "all the time" which, in his mind, meant "some of the time". OK. I'll go with that.

How long before it's not just individuals of interest but everyone, once the storage and processing technology is available (paid for exclusively by taxes and 'fees' of course), having their whereabouts datalogged? Can you prove to me it isn't happening already? Maybe you can, but probably you can't.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/01/15/sunstein/

Greenwald wrote:Sunstein's response to these criticisms is easy to find in what he writes, and is as telling as the proposal itself. He acknowledges that some "conspiracy theories" previously dismissed as insane and fringe have turned out to be entirely true (his examples: the CIA really did secretly administer LSD in "mind control" experiments; the DOD really did plot the commission of terrorist acts inside the U.S. with the intent to blame Castro; the Nixon White House really did bug the DNC headquarters). Given that history, how could it possibly be justified for the U.S. Government to institute covert programs designed to undermine anti-government "conspiracy theories," discredit government critics, and increase faith and trust in government pronouncements? Because, says Sunstein, such powers are warranted only when wielded by truly well-intentioned government officials who want to spread The Truth and Do Good -- i.e., when used by people like Cass Sunstein and Barack Obama:

Sunstein wrote:Throughout, we assume a well-motivated government that aims to eliminate conspiracy theories, or draw their poison, if and only if social welfare is improved by doing so.

But, wait.... whose social welfare is he talking about?

Ridicule of Conspiracy Theories Focuses On Diffusing Criticism of the Powerful
(disclosure: this person links to WND, which I wouldn't do, but almost all other sources are mainstream, if that is a prerequisite)

Pay attention, and you'll notice that criticism of "conspiracy theories" is usually aimed at attempting to protect the state and key government players. The power of the state is seldom used to crush conspiracy theories regarding people who are not powerful . . . at least to the extent that they are not important to the government.

Does Mr. Sunstein have funding for his pet project yet? As "Head of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs", I'll bet he does. Have his minions put in an appearance here yet?

Nope, this forum is too small and inconsequential.

Oh, shoot, guess I should have read the comments at the bottom of the article I linked to above, about the researchers who 'invented' the conspiracy theory that "The government is using mobile phone technology to track everyone all the time":

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6534319/State-to-spy-on-every-phone-call-email-and-web-search.html

State to 'spy' on every phone call, email and web search.

All telecoms companies and internet service providers will be required by law to keep a record of every customer’s personal communications, showing who they have contacted, when and where, as well as the websites they have visited.

What's a few extra bytes per record for storing the GPS coordinates? It's probably already being done, but the researchers thought they were inventing a conspiracy theory!!! hahaha, much funnier than I thought! They displayed a singular lack of intellectual curiousity and an active imagination in constructing their crock-of-shit research, qualities which the researchers consider to be one of the twin pillars of belief in 9/11 conspiracy theories:

Much as Swami’s team suspected, beliefs in 9/11 conspiracy theories were stronger among individuals whose personalities combined suspicion and antagonism toward others with intellectual curiosity and an active imagination.

Again, emphasis mine. I suspect the survey really indicated a suspicion and antagonism towards government and authority, not others in general, but I could be wrong.

Having once been on good terms (aka drinking buddies) with someone on the premier support team from one of the larger mobile telecoms firms, I can tell you for certain that there used to be (at least 5 years ago) a tick-box on the support teams customer profile details that they could select to *NOT* store GPS data, if the customer specifically requested so. By deafult, it was on, 5 years ago. Similarly, mast cell data could also be selected to be binned, if requested.

I think that at that time, data protection laws required that it was possible for you to request that such information was *NOT* stored, but I imagine that situation changed quite a while ago.

Utterly naive to think that installations (Menwith Hill (UK) ? Last time I looked into any of this was years ago, so I may be wildly out of date) do not have automated text and audio scanning and storage processes, including positional data, for each and every phone call or text message. And that's being tinfoil hat about it. Simply for the ability for police authorities to pull up your phone records, or you receiving an itemised phone bill should be enough for us to know that records are kept. Data storage is incredibly cheap these days. Every firm I've worked with has stored every phone call ever made or received from the building.