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B&L Revisited - Rigidity and Crush Direction(s)

Analysis of airplane impacts, fires and collapse theories and examination of related evidence.

Re: B&L Revisited - Rigidity and Crush Direction(s)

Postby Major_Tom on Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:07 pm

The point is deformity in the upper slab.


Moving on, I believe it is very important to understand that on each of the 8 WTC1, 2 faces very different phenomena (and mechanics) result from whether the upper perimeter sheet or lower perimeter sheet slips to the inside during the earliest failure).


Guys, that simple fact changes everything. If the upper sheet slips (or is intentionally pushed) outwards, all behavior (and roofline measurements?) along that face changes.

We can see how this simple change in inital positioning can destroy the physical integrity of the upper block.

Image

The lower perimeter breaks successive outer floor connections along the red line.

It strips the upper block perimeter columns from their flooring.

Pop, pop, pop, pop all the way up. (or small jolt, jolt, jolt...who knows?)

Large perimeter sheets will be seen to go into freefall from the upper block, stripped of their flooring. Sound familiar?


If the process were reversed (as shown on the left side of the building). You'd strip the lower block perimeter from it's flooring (as seen along WTC2 east face).


If this is true, what is a large part of the resistance force F which controls the building descent as measured along the WTC1 north face roofline?

Probably the perimeter-floor connections and their resistance to being destroyed?
Last edited by Major_Tom on Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: B&L Revisited - Rigidity and Crush Direction(s)

Postby David B. Benson on Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:43 pm

Major_Tom wrote:Probably the perimeter-floor connections and their resistance to being destroyed?
That requires less than 50 MJ per floor as 50 MJ suffices for all the truss seats, not just those on the exterior wall.

Crushing concrete develops a force proportional to the square of the speed; see BLGB.
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Re: B&L Revisited - Linear rate Ejecta traversal

Postby femr2 on Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:57 pm

OneWhiteEye wrote:
femr2 wrote:Have been meaning to do so for a while now Will get on it.

So many things, I know! As always, at your convenience. It will be nice to get even a crude impression of the advance. Linear is not so weird in itself, there's terminal velocity to consider. However, the timing is the key and it would be nice to know what the average speed is.

I think this is possibly the most useful footage to use...static camera position...
Image
Image

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMeTGfCZWMI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F5Tw2ITMF8

(I'll increase accuracy later with the following video, but the dynamic camera makes things long-winded for a first attempt)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb1PfiBT7A0

It will have to be a manual track I'm afraid, as there's no *feature* for automated tracking to latch on to. Will post data shortly.

In the meantime, if there is other footage that may be more useful....point me at it :)
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Re: B&L Revisited - Rigidity and Crush Direction(s)

Postby Major_Tom on Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:21 pm

Femr, nice choice of video.

Below is a great video to see details of the NW corner progression and west face progression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iT7mmmc-YY&feature=channel_page

Outstanding detail. I know you cannot use this for measurements but I bet the two videos can be used together to show both measurements (from afar) and the actual detail of what is happening at any moment.

The devil is in the details.

Are we really witnessing OOS w and nw runaway destruction? With those ejections? Really?

The video clearly shows both OOS nw progression and OOS sw progression right next to one another.

Femr, this shows that you were right when you said the leading ejections on the BBC video were from well into the west face. (I was wrong because I said they were from the sw corner).

I never noticed that before: You can see OOS nw, OOS w and OOS sw progression right next to one another.

Do you see what I am talking about in the clip i linked to? Whoa!!!! It gives you an incredible close-up of what you call "linear demolition wave exposed".
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Re: B&L Revisited - Rigidity and Crush Direction(s)

Postby OneWhiteEye on Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:20 am

Major_Tom wrote:The devil is in the details.

That saying has come up a lot recently. Yep.
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Re: B&L Revisited - Rigidity and Crush Direction(s)

Postby femr2 on Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:51 pm

Initial data for linear ejecta traversal from West face of WTC 1:

Image

Image
http://femr2.ucoz.com/photo/6-0-219-3 (1234x731px/67.0Kb)

Image
http://femr2.ucoz.com/photo/6-0-220-3 (1224x730px/87.3Kb)

Code: Select all
Tracker1
0 721.476 375.888
1 721.696 375.767
2 721.786 375.408
3 721.557 376.272
4 721.589 375.405
5 721.523 375.117
6 721.536 374.440
7 721.702 374.986
8 721.823 374.718
9 721.890 373.537
10 721.904 373.412
11 722.034 373.501
12 722.239 373.204
13 722.288 373.265
14 722.315 372.381
15 722.423 372.789
16 722.255 372.125
17 722.535 372.497
18 722.852 372.621
19 722.631 371.841
20 722.793 371.743
21 722.827 371.847
22 722.981 371.589
23 723.136 371.182
24 723.382 370.738
25 723.224 370.404
26 723.224 370.024
27 723.677 369.614
28 724.114 369.077
29 723.977 368.649
30 723.831 368.179
31 723.895 367.813
32 723.816 366.855
33 724.307 366.007
34 724.275 365.239
35 724.010 364.010
36 722.378 365.754
37 722.322 364.987
38 722.356 364.142
39 722.513 363.098
40 722.643 361.575
41 723.096 360.693
42 723.314 360.003
43 723.005 358.306
44 722.755 356.862
45 722.338 353.314
46 721.611 349.568
47 721.799 348.582
48 721.889 347.614
49 721.201 345.762
50 720.922 344.640
51 720.986 344.161
52 721.178 343.460
53 721.100 342.730
54 721.049 341.913
55 720.598 340.999
56 720.528 339.843
57 720.435 339.126
58 720.551 337.950
59 720.641 336.576
60 720.600 333.557
61 720.632 332.382
62 720.666 331.251
63 720.977 328.214
64 721.196 324.659
65 721.027 324.176
66 720.872 323.056
67 720.715 319.442
68 721.311 316.582
69 721.420 314.769
70 721.152 311.920
71 721.441 309.419
72 722.035 306.544
73 722.081 304.624
74 721.956 300.797
75 721.828 298.748
76 721.627 299.510
77 721.540 298.074
78 721.502 297.110
79 721.428 296.212
80 721.376 294.837
81 721.423 292.971
82 721.756 291.283
83 721.655 289.267
84 721.697 287.807
85 721.738 285.502
86 721.548 283.144
87 721.064 279.980
88 720.074 280.793
89 719.950 280.047
90 719.805 279.261
91 719.800 279.212
92 719.511 279.090
93 716.514 267.100
94 716.386 266.929
95 716.764 266.540
96 716.956 266.266
97 717.002 265.814
98 717.003 265.281
99 717.080 264.576
100 717.133 263.321
101 717.282 263.370
102 717.346 262.469
103 717.545 260.871
104 717.946 257.634
105 717.865 251.882
106 718.090 250.194
107 718.073 248.865
108 718.098 245.680
109 718.037 239.270
110 718.085 237.249
111 718.387 236.537
112 718.721 235.793
113 718.519 233.065
114 718.472 228.316
115 718.422 227.104
116 718.653 225.120
117 718.545 222.672
118 719.019 221.439
119 722.126 213.375
120 722.246 211.262
121 722.001 209.885
122 721.852 207.668
123 721.908 206.588
124 722.097 204.839
125 721.176 201.106
126 722.181 200.257
127 722.095 197.693
128 721.876 195.204
129 721.547 191.086
130 720.900 188.512
131 722.005 190.771
132 721.005 189.940
133 720.947 189.156
134 722.433 186.081
135 721.467 186.299
136 721.357 185.068
137 721.178 184.047
138 722.741 180.704
139 721.809 179.750
140 721.815 177.667
141 722.808 176.460
142 721.805 174.569
143 721.649 172.482
144 721.519 169.953
145 721.750 167.671
146 721.297 164.847
147 721.582 163.334
148 722.217 161.045
149 721.223 158.648
150 721.321 154.494
151 720.598 147.592
152 720.305 143.547
153 720.073 141.692
154 720.971 140.331
155 721.675 140.290
156 720.780 139.178
157 721.064 137.044
158 721.232 134.618
159 721.280 132.761
160 721.083 129.975
161 721.170 127.780
162 721.291 125.300
163 721.254 123.477
164 721.098 120.468
165 721.266 119.545
166 721.144 118.425
167 721.476 116.745
168 721.339 115.437
169 721.787 114.309
170 721.950 113.038
171 722.083 113.299
172 722.955 106.587
173 723.276 106.367
174 723.597 106.324
175 723.774 99.059


Note: The first section of data is very difficult to determine (the curved section) and further work is required to separate the initial descent ejecta from the latter linear ejecta.

Correlation with other videos will be required to improve data quality.

I also need to determine the scale in order to convert the raw data into velocity...

Footage is 25fps. Data is per-frame.
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Re: B&L Revisited - Rigidity and Crush Direction(s)

Postby femr2 on Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:58 pm

A quick thought on crush direction...

The following asynch model trace shows crush down *and* crush up a little closer than previous views (I can zoom to any level if anyone wants to see specific sections, to at-least 10dp timer resolution):

Image
http://femr2.ucoz.com/photo/6-0-221-3 (1201x884px/196.7Kb)

Total crush-up of the cap completes at ~4.5s into descent, by which time the *roofline* is 10 floors below the initial failure floor, and so in reality would be completely obscured by smoke and debris...

The behaviour of the roofline is not affected by lower floor impacts.

Can anyone show visual evidence that crush-up did *not* occur ?

If not, then can someone please explain why it is still being discussed, and not simply, and logically, included as part of the descent process ?

(The model is still very simple, and will need to be modified to correlate to the 0.7g numbers thrown around. At this time the upper floors descend at free-fall until impacting a lower floor.)
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Re: B&L Revisited - Rigidity and Crush Direction(s)

Postby femr2 on Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:09 pm

Major_Tom wrote:You can see OOS nw, OOS w and OOS sw progression right next to one another.

Do you see what I am talking about in the clip i linked to? Whoa!!!! It gives you an incredible close-up of what you call "linear demolition wave exposed".

Indeed.

I have a number of versions of the footage in full 1280x720 HD, with a couple of them using fully interpolated slooooow motion. Well worth checking out :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC0ZBSDBZCY
(H264 version: http://femr2.ucoz.com/load/1-1-0-7)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=samGjZ8nKgk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KixTSW-yOFk
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Re: B&L Revisited - Rigidity and Crush Direction(s)

Postby Major_Tom on Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:29 pm

I like the way you offer links to high res downloads through your website.

It's a researcher's dream. Thanks.


Can anyone show visual evidence that crush-up did *not* occur ?

If not, then can someone please explain why it is still being discussed, and not simply, and logically, included as part of the descent process ?


Amen. It serves as a distraction. We have destroyed the idea of no crush up both theoretically (BL crush up dependent upon colunns buckling upwards, a silly idea) and empirically.

We won that discussion (a while ago).

Please get over it.

I think it is a bit unfair that DBB can keep filling the forum wth this belief in an intact upper block without a shred of visual evidence.

Let's move on, not backwards.
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Re: B&L Revisited - Rigidity and Crush Direction(s)

Postby David B. Benson on Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:32 pm

femr2 wrote:Can anyone show visual evidence that crush-up did *not* occur ?
Somewhere in the NIST report there is a graphic illustrting their study of the section of the south wall of WTC 1 that they pieced back together. It is about 6 stories high and 6--7 panels wide, roughly circular in outline.
It shows quite obviously that the exterior wall truss seats were destroyed vertically below floor 98. (I take this as evidence that the upper south perimeter wall fell inside the lower wall, destroying the truss seats.) However, above floor 98 there is no preferred direction to the truss seat distruction. Certainly does not appear to be strictly crush-up, at any time, to me.

I do not (at least at this time) generalize to any other part of WTC 1.

Major_Tom --- I don't require "intact", just that most of the mass stays up there most of the way to the bottom (unlike WTC 2). Please do not attribute to me that which I did not write.
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Re: B&L Revisited - Rigidity and Crush Direction(s)

Postby femr2 on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:21 pm

David B. Benson wrote:Somewhere in the NIST report there is a graphic illustrting their study of the section of the south wall of WTC 1 that they pieced back together. It is about 6 stories high and 6--7 panels wide, roughly circular in outline.
It shows quite obviously that the exterior wall truss seats were destroyed vertically below floor 98. (I take this as evidence that the upper south perimeter wall fell inside the lower wall, destroying the truss seats.)

Ah the unseen south side. What about the more visible N, E & W sides which would appear to be the opposite, in that the perimeter dropped outside the lower wall ?

However, above floor 98 there is no preferred direction to the truss seat distruction.

I don't quite follow you. Are you saying similar truss seat destruction was or was not present ? Or that the direction of failure can be determined ?

Certainly does not appear to be strictly crush-up, at any time, to me.

Again, I'm not clear upon what you are saying. Are you saying that it does not appear to be crush-up at all, or crush-up only ?

I don't think anyone would suggest crush-up without corresponding crush-down (Still don't like the phrase :? ). As soon as perimeter is shed/peeled/... there can be only floor<->floor impact, which will definitely be subject to action/reaction, and inevitable simultaneous crush down/up.

I do not (at least at this time) generalize to any other part of WTC 1.

So would you accept that crush-up simultaneous with crush-down is probable for the other 3 sides ?

Major_Tom --- I don't require "intact", just that most of the mass stays up there most of the way to the bottom (unlike WTC 2). Please do not attribute to me that which I did not write.

What is the effect on B&L (et al) if the *effective* upper mass is reduced by 50% (ongoing) ? Specifically the descent time ... ?

From observation on my asynch model, around, say, half of the descending mass (of which 100% is retained) is acting upon the lowest impacted floor. The rest is descending still, but not in direct contact with the lowest falling *debris*.
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Re: B&L Revisited - Rigidity and Crush Direction(s)

Postby Major_Tom on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:34 pm

Major_Tom --- I don't require "intact", just that most of the mass stays up there most of the way to the bottom (unlike WTC 2). Please do not attribute to me that which I did not write.


That wasn't you preaching the intact upper block for hundreds of posts?

"Punctured by the spire"

Crush up, then crush down?

BL shows why crush up is impossible?



That wasn't you wasting our time?

Even now you won't admit you were wrong?

The readers of this forum are not stupid. They have been reading your posts and have a good idea what you have been arguing.


Are you trying to fool everybody, or just me?
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Re: B&L Revisited - Rigidity and Crush Direction(s)

Postby David B. Benson on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:48 pm

femr2 wrote:What about the more visible N, E & W sides which would appear to be the opposite, in that the perimeter dropped outside the lower wall ?
Based on Major_Tom's analysis, I doubt this for the east wall.

However, above floor 98 there is no preferred direction to the truss seat distruction.

I don't quite follow you. Are you saying similar truss seat destruction was or was not present ? Or that the direction of failure can be determined ?
The truss seats were, of course, destroyed. But not solely or even primarily in the vertical direction.

Certainly does not appear to be strictly crush-up, at any time, to me.

Again, I'm not clear upon what you are saying. Are you saying that it does not appear to be crush-up at all, or crush-up only ?
I fail to understand how a "crush-up" could produce such a random pattern of varied distruction.

Major_Tom --- I don't require "intact", just that most of the mass stays up there most of the way to the bottom (unlike WTC 2). Please do not attribute to me that which I did not write.

What is the effect on B&L (et al) if the *effective* upper mass is reduced by 50% (ongoing) ?
For B&L, nothing at all because in that analysis early crush-up ends most rapidly after a negligible effect.

Major_Tom --- For me "intact" is a relative term; it does not mean pristine. It means, as I said, that most of the mass remains on top for WTC 1. The data analysis suggests this is so for WTC 1. On the other hand, as I have also posted many times, there is video evidence that the top did not remain intact and above in the case of WTC 2.

Got it now?
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Re: B&L Revisited - Rigidity and Crush Direction(s)

Postby femr2 on Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:43 pm

David B. Benson wrote:
femr2 wrote:What about the more visible N, E & W sides which would appear to be the opposite, in that the perimeter dropped outside the lower wall ?
Based on Major_Tom's analysis, I doubt this for the east wall.

So N & W outside. S & E inside. Is that your view ?

However, above floor 98 there is no preferred direction to the truss seat distruction.

I don't quite follow you. Are you saying similar truss seat destruction was or was not present ? Or that the direction of failure can be determined ?
The truss seats were, of course, destroyed. But not solely or even primarily in the vertical direction.

What is the relevance to crush down/up ?

Certainly does not appear to be strictly crush-up, at any time, to me.

Again, I'm not clear upon what you are saying. Are you saying that it does not appear to be crush-up at all, or crush-up only ?
I fail to understand how a "crush-up" could produce such a random pattern of varied distruction.

Whereas crush down would ?

I don't see how your responses answer my questions...

Major_Tom --- I don't require "intact", just that most of the mass stays up there most of the way to the bottom (unlike WTC 2). Please do not attribute to me that which I did not write.

What is the effect on B&L (et al) if the *effective* upper mass is reduced by 50% (ongoing) ?
For B&L, nothing at all because in that analysis early crush-up ends most rapidly after a negligible effect.

The full remaining mass is applied to lower floors as far as I am aware. I am asking you what the effect of halving that effective mass is...
Are you saying that the mass quantity has no effect ?

I hope my questions, and the reasons for asking, are clear. If you don't feel like providing full and clear answers, just ignore. I'd quite like to see discussion of the linear ejecta trace I posted earlier TBH.
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Re: B&L Revisited - Rigidity and Crush Direction(s)

Postby OneWhiteEye on Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:02 pm

Intact is not a relative term for things within Bazantian mechanics. It may be sufficient, we'll see. VAF is another matter, so in the remark:

David B. Benson wrote:Major_Tom --- For me "intact" is a relative term...


the bold is on "for me" and that's possibly a separate issue.

A collapsing upper block (free body) cannot exert the same average force on the lower part as one that remains rigid. It's d'Alembert's principle. Only if the distance between all points in a body remain constant is it defined to be rigid, and only then is it legitimate to treat it as a point mass for translational purposes, though with defined extents. There's no getting around that. If it's implosion, as in collapse, it is necessarily less force. The converse is expansion, as in something blowing up or releasing internal stress, which might exert more force than would a free rigid body.

Whether that delta force makes any substantial difference in the motion of the crush front, I couldn't say at this point, but don't think so. It's essentially the same as having a reduced mass, and there is some insensitivity to mass variation. Where I think it makes a difference is in the action and appearance of the upper block itself. Should it be shown that with a modest deviation from the assumptions of B&L that mixed crush is expected, it changes the tone of the discussion. Technically, it still doesn't address the possibilities in failure modes other than axial impact, but it does show that even the conventional and conservative theory admits the possibility.

The matter of shear direction is a bit problematic, but the term "crush up" is a contextual convenience; skewering or vivisection might be a better term. Orientation may be somewhat disordered with interpenetration of structural members. The Bazant theory is crush up at the end - it has the same problem to answer and I feel no more compelled to do so than he does. Assuming mechanics contrary to evidence seems to be A-OK in that case, would be so for me, too, but I'd rather take the standards up a notch.
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